Hello every one, I am new to this site and to blogging. I am also a novice clicker trainer although I'm not sure I am a cross over since I was never very good with other methods. If I did succeed it was usually by accident and frought with guilt. So I am quite relieved to have found this method.
I am seeking advice: I have 3 pugs. A male (Pablo), a female (Violet) and their daughter (Buttercup). The adults are 5 years old and Buttercup is 16 months old. Mom was spayed after the last litter and dad was recently neutered. Buttercup is not spayed. Pablo is very laid back, loves to please and obedient by most standards. The girls are another matter. Both very mental, they need thinking games and jobs to do. Butter has more energy then the retrievers I have lived with and more then most toddlers. She is a cutie and a crazy dog!
Here is my problem: Violet has always been the alpha female. As Buttercup matures she tests the waters and asserts her dominance. They have fought several times, spurred on by resource guarding food, or me, or my partner. I have stopped the fighting by pulling them (gently) apart. Lately, I have changed tactics, in hope that letting them go a little will help to work it out - I've been supervising until I find an opportunity for distraction. It does not take long, no more then a minute.They have never really hurt each other and my second method seems to avoid the grudge holding that the pulling apart seems to result in. I do not raise my voice, scold or add to the mele...I separate them and get them to focus,sit, often I step between in a way to block their eye contact. I really want to extinguish this behavior, any ideas would be helpful.
BTW: I try to respect Violet's staus by feeding her first, etc. Interesting, Pablo rarely shows aggression; on the rare occassion that he might growl over a bone the girls immediately back down.
Hi Rita, at first glance
Hi Rita, at first glance the prognosis isn't good. Certainly in most cases the recommendation would be to rehome one of the dogs. On the other hand, you are committed to sorting this out and have sought resources.
I couldn't really get any idea of how serious this is from your posts. The fights stop quickly, that's a very good sign. Has there even been blood? If one dog starts, does the other need further provocation to retaliate or will she ignore it for a while?
Now is definitely not a time to make any decisions. With the move, the new animals (cat and partner) and the surgery everything will be abnormal. You cannot make a good decision based on "abnormal". Manage them very closely and set them up for success at every interaction until the dust settles. That means no interactions where you're not doing something to make sure it is a good interaction.
Dogs in groups do rely on hierarchies, but I would completely leave any thoughts about dominance or rank out of this. It will only add to the complexity, and from where I stand it's not such a complex problem when you look at the bigger picture.
Use this time to work on the resource guarding issues. You need a base, how is their Doggy Zen? Can you do it with both dogs together, using protected contact or tethers if need be? If you work on this exercise, post your results to a blog and I'm sure people will have ideas for how to progress from there.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
prayer works :-) or I have no idea what happened...but
first let me say thank you again for prompt replies and all your help. I would have posted sooner but life here is hectic: recovering puggy, sons graduating, moving in general and an ornery Buttercup. First let me say that while I respect the advice; finding Butter another home would be like re-homing one of my sons because he was being a jerk and pissing me off. When Violet had her pups last year, she had two boys and then two hours later she had a sweet, tiny stillborn boy :'-(, and we thought she was done. Twelve hours later I was sitting on my bed, Pablo next to me and Violet at the foot of the bed in a comfy bed of her own nursing her sons when she got up, left the pups, and came to sit in my lap, less then five minutes later Buttercup made her entrance into the world. So I might consider the possibility briefly but the execution is impossible. When I read Aidan's post I had a glass of wine and got a black mat and practiced 'Doggie Zen' (leave it) with all 3 dogs, shoulder to shoulder, without incident. So I though okay, I'm exhaling and sleeping and we'll see. The next morning I paid special attention to eating breakfast first, feeding the dogs in a random pattern and separating Violet and Buttercup by a gate while I got ready to take Violet to the vet to have her drain removed. I noticed both Violet and Pablo offering calming signals. When we returned, Violet was so happy, she felt better and she was glad to be home. At first everything was fine and then Butter became tense, and then Violet rolled onto her back and started play fighting with Butter and totally diffused the situation!
At Dave's this weekend there was only one incident and I removed the 'toy' and that was that. Back home amid boxes and the confusion of moving Butter is definitely tense, so I try to get a really long walk in, but it doesn't replace running for the shear joy of it. Violet subdued her once (very gently, which surprised me)...and that is all. I really don't know what turned the tide but...it is harmonious here again. I am thankful and humbled because dogs can be amazing sometimes...you think you understand and they surprise you...
So thank you all for being there. For sharing your thoughts. All the great advice and ideas will be utilized.
Ri
Rita Ippolito
www.savagemermaidswildpugs.com
keeping the peace...
Things have been going well since my last post. Suggestions were working. I have been able to intercept and diffuse any problems between Violet and Buttercup.
However, on Tuesday Violet had surgery to remove a 3.5 inch toothpick from her abdominal wall. She was in hospital for a day. She is home recovering now. Upon her arrival home Pablo greeted her but Buttercup immediately became aggressive. They are separated as Violet needs rest and is in her crate. This morning I removed that dreadful and smelly collar that keeps her from licking her incision and put on a t-shirt which does the same. The girls behaved better but they were both on leashes and could only sniff from a distance. Buttercup seemed much more relaxed. Just now however I let Violet out of her crate for a moment to give her a stretch and some love and they went for each other. I intervened and return Violet to the crate and put Butter in a sit right by the crate. Every one is sleeping now...Violet in the crate and Buttercup and Pablo in a bed right next to the crate.
Why did it escalate after Violet's surgery? Any thoughts...
Rita Ippolito
www.savagemermaidswildpugs.com
Thank You! Emily, Ruthie and Yasi!
It's great to know that I have support and resources out there. All the information has been helpful. Ruthie I will get that book! I have just read 'Feeling Outnumbered, How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household' by Karen London and Patricia McConnell. Just in the nick of time, too.
First, let me explain that I am in the processes of moving into my partner's home. Moving stresses everyone out, but no one more then momma Violet. Second she chased down my partner's cat over the weekend. We were returning form a walk in the woods with all 3 dogs and usually they just get out of the car and follow us in. The cat has been laying low when the dogs are around but last week they actually tolerated each other for very short times and at great distance. This time however, Whiskers was in the driveway and Violet took off after him. He didn't come back for 2 days - needless to say my partner was annoyed. Lastly, Violet has been ill for a while, fighting off some mystery infection until she developed an abscess a couple of weeks ago - so lots of vet trips to drain it, culture it etc., to figure out if this has been the underlying problem. So Violet is not always up to training, playing or anything really.
I have been observing the dogs and reading the book, and evaluating my current strategies. Yesterday, while I was working on something, the girls got into it over a stolen treat bag. I decided to separate them immediately and in the process Buttercup bit my finger. It is quite nasty for such a little mouth. Without further ado she went into a crate and momma Violet was placed in a down/stay on the dog bed in my room. Pablo was following me around "cleaning up" the spills as I tried to stop the bleeding. You may imagine I have had it by now. Although I did not lose my temper, I spent short time calming down, reflecting on how to alter my behavior to resolve this.
Then it was back to basic training for all of us; implementing many of your ideas and also, ideas from the book. I did a lot of body blocking with Buttercup, last night at bed time, to keep her where I wanted her to be. She is a bit confused but it worked to keep her calm and paying attention. This morning they all were walked separately. Pablo and Violet were well behaved, and stayed at heel. Butter, I noticed had the toughest time. Without the support of her parents she was quite frightened but by the end of once around the block she was heeling although not totally relaxed. When I returned with her, her momma was overjoyed to see her. Emily had it right when she said that women don't know when to stop...they can act like they are going to kill each other one minute and then next even 15 minutes apart was an unbearable eternity.
Things are fine as I write this although, I've had to assert that one of the moving boxes is MY box with Violet and that the dining chair is MY chair w/ Butter. Interestingly, I never had problems like this when I had large dogs (which were all male btw). I have to find the same balance between compassion and leadership with my little dogs, as I have had in the past with my big dogs!
Thanks for all your help! I'll let you know how things progress.
Ri
Rita Ippolito
www.savagemermaidswildpugs.com
Thoughts...
I don't see this as an issue with the human as the leader. I see this as an inter-female struggle. The first thing that I would try would be to feed and pet the younger first. Yes I know that it sounds odd, but if the order has truly changed this may help. Another thing to do would be to randomize who gets what first. Example, for dinner the dog that sits the quickest gets to eat first. This would go for who gets out of the crate first, out the door first, and so on. You get to choose and this doesn't support any one structure. Inter-female fighting/bickering is always the worst. Two women just don't know when to let it go.
Watch the interactions and try not to wait until there is bickering to step in. You should see a stiffening, hard eye, lip flick before things break out and break things up then. I have a strict no growl rule with furniture and treats. The dog that grumbles loses what it was after. If it's treats, the other dog gets it. If it's the couch, they lose their spot.
Best of Luck!
Emily
Fighting for Alpha status
Run, don't walk, to the nearest good bookstore and buy "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell. I'm in the middle of it right now, and it will offer good advice about getting this under control.
Without being there, all I can do is guess... It seems as if Pablo is the Alpha male, and (you're right) the girls are fighting over who gets to be alpha bitch.
But that's your job. If you become the real alpha bitch, then you can enforce a "no fighting" rule.
...From a clicker POV: have you taught a "leave it," or another cue to turn away from temptation? If so, try it when they begin making faces at each other. Now, back to the book!
One of the four ways Ms. Fennel uses to establish leadership is to feed differently. Have a small snack handy; before setting the dog's bowl down, eat the snack. Feed the dogs in a different order each night. Thus you reinforce that, first, you are the pack leader and you eat first; and second, that there is no particular pecking order among your "underlings." Also, no free feeding; when the dog walks away from the bowl, you take it up.
She has 4 parts to establishing leadership and I've only read the first two. I just instituted the feeding program tonight, so I'm far from expert! They are based on her own observations of her pack, and on studying wolf packs.
Her methods are non-violent, and they really ring my chimes. I've got some 18 years experience with training, rescuing, and teaching classes, and am an experienced clicker convert. Plus, I've had a pack myself, and her observations are sound. Ms. Fennell "disses" training gimmicks at one point, but it doesn't worry me. There's nothing (so far; remember I haven't finished the book yet) that would conflict with clicker training. And CT fits right in with the food bit, reinforcing that you control the treats. (Not to mention how it makes both you and your dogs watch each other intently!)
Hope this helps a bit!
Ruthie in Colorado