Though I have been training my own and a few other animals for years, I have recently started clicker training. I am new to this and learning, but I'm always surprised at how many of my fellow trainers consider these methods unsuitable for birddogs. It is true that birds are more exciting to field bred dogs than treats but the puppy basics should be so much easier to teach right? So, I am helping to train a young puppy for house dog AND bird dog life. Traditionally, bird dog trainers don't reccomend starting any "serious" training until a dog is older, but this is due to the methods used. Sometimes to harsh for young dogs. Ther all kinds of crazy methods used to get a dog to understand "whoa" and many involve complicated ropes and posts, or even a pulley sytem. Also many of my peers felt that training "sit" was a bad idea as dogs often resort to the fisrt command they know when they are confused or pressured. BUT sit is such a great way for puppies to learn to be still and a nice way to teach them to greet my children gently. So, I am training this new puppy to learn multiple tricks starting with hand signal cues. So far he has learned "sit" "down" "stand" and early "whoa." My next big step to work towards is "whoa" at the door to go in and out, so he doesn't push us out of the way going through the door. We shall see, if I can prove my friends wrong and teach old people new tricks. :)
Teaching a pointing dog puppy
By birddogger on 01/08/2009
Pointing dogs
Hello!
I am an enthousiastic pointing dog trainer who has bought in the idea of gentle training, and clicker training.
It is true that training can be started at a much younger age on a puppy since no harsh method is used. Also true that gentler method ensures a much more cooperative and happier dog kean to please. A few comments though:
Even though it is very usefull (and mandatory!) to do basic obedience before doing hunting training, some behaviors should not be taught early on to pointing dogs. The reason being mainly the pointing ''style'' that has great importance in pointing dogs. Pointing is a natural instinct where the dog ''freezes'' at the sight or smell of a bird. Dog concentrates on the origin of the smell, indicating where the bird is. In the wilderness, wolves will freeze so the bird doesn't get scared and take of. When the wolf is confident it has located its prey properly, he jumps on it. Of course, any dog (including chihuahuas and Great Danes) can be taught to ''stop'' when they smell a bird, but that is drastically different then a natural ''point''. Anybody involved in pointing dogs will see the difference. Different breeds will show different pointing styles. The intensity of the point will also give an indication of the type of bird, or the distance between the bird and the dog when he comes to a halt, giving the human partner relevant information.
For that reason, the dog shouldn't be taught the sit or down commands (maybe with the exception of the Setters-who ''set'' on a bird smell). It is different on a retriever who traditionally sits when its job is done.
The other thing is the wait command, that is different from the Whoa. Wait means ''stay there while I do some other thing'' where the Whoa has to do with stopping on its own initiative and eventually coming to a point.
One of the big differences between hunting (that is: searching for, finding and pointing a bird) and any other man-dog activity is the strength of the instinct it unveils. The prey drive. It has to do with the survival instinct. On dogs raised and selected for this instinct, the reproduction instinct might even come second. If I get my gun out of the closet the night before a hunting (or trial) day, my dogs will not eat over the gun powder smell. They will not be able to sleep.
I am still trying to find out what would be the right ''treat'' on the click and treat process. Getting treats, playing or praise? Boresome at that stage of training.
I am still trying to find good litterature on proven techniques for pointing dog training, Can somebody help?
Thanks!
Paul
Pointing dogs
I'm responding to the post about NOT teaching a pointer to sit etc before bird work. I've never found any issues with teaching my pointers (english) sit, down, stand etc before bird work. It's alot like the idea of not teaching your show dog to sit...I've never followed that advice - it didn't make sense to me. My dogs know by which collar they are wearing and perhaps environmental cues, what task they are performing. My brilliant, instincitve and solid young pointing dog will sit on command but never ever sits in the bird field when on birds.
Just as all of my conformation champions never sit in the ring when required to stand and 'hold a pose.' I once let a handler hold the leash of my young conformation dog while I retrieved my number. As I walked back to them, I saw him lift his hand to his shoulder - in a perfect hand signal for sit - but it was HIS hand signal for a 'free stack (or perfect show stance). My dog promptly sat at his signal. I walked up just then and the handler raised anguished eyes to me and said - "OH NO you taught him to SIT!" I did laugh - it sounded so funny - but I then told him about the hand signal and that his stand is a default when he wears this collar at this type of venue unless asked otherwise. So if I do NOTHING he automatically stands - if ( when bored in the long wait in group ring) I play some games with him and ask him otherwise, he'll sit, down stand, touch etc to keep boredom at bay.
I am enjoying the Clicker training your Gun Dog book. It has british origins so things don't always directly apply to NA pointing trials and tests (they do things differently on the flush there and they seperate the pointing breeds into Pointer/Setter and Hunting pointer/retriever - the first category is only pointers -the proper name for 'english' pointer is just pointer- and setters breeds while the second category is German Shorthairs, weims. vizslas etc - all that hunt more then just 'feathers.') But the book has tons of great training ideas for control, working the field etc.
Brenda
and the pointer gang
Progress report for the birddog
I have worked with NAVHDA and agree they are much more receptive folks. While most in our club give me odd looks when I mention clicker training a puppy, they don't complain or tell me why it won't work. Nice to have this resource for training and I appreciate your comments.
My pup's progress is going slowly, but he is limited by me and my time which has been very limited lately. I also tried to move to fast and have had to slow back down for him and extend his whoa longer before we move it to the door. I have just started making him whoa at the closed door going through it either way, unless of course it is the first ouside of the morning and we need to get out fast for housetraining reasons!
I have noticed that he has started to revert to the sit when he is confused and I just ignore this and have not worked on sit in many days. Just down and whoa for now. We are trying to get the down to a reduced little hand signal rather than actually touching the floor, and the whoa is, as stated above, hopefully being extended to a long "whoa." He gets the stop in his tracks, but his attention span can be limited. Fortunately he has started a growth spurt and is super food motivated right now. We train before his meals, and he is very eager to get that treat.
Postivie training (gundog)
The local NAVHDA group (for versatile hunting dogs) I'm with has a number of old-time hunters in it.. however they DO do a lot of work with puppies (exposure rather than training) and the first level of testing is supposed to be more about instinct than training.
Our group very much understands that you train your own dog, so while they will offer suggestions about how to train, they are polite and helpful not pushy. Also, I think because the NAVHDA system is testing not trialing, I've found the group to be much friendlier than our local field trial clubs.
The other book I know of is the Jim Barry book on gundogs, but I haven't read either.
Shannon
and Beaker, the funny looking (wire) Vizsla (NAVHDA NA tested)
don't worry
Positive training is as suitable and effective for birddogs as for every other kind of dog.
I strongly recommend "the Clicker gundog" - a book all about how to positively train the hunting dog.
There is also "Positive Gundogs" which is a great book
The clicker gundog is angled a little towards pointing breeds, and the positive gundog is angled mostly towards retrievers. But both books can be used to train all kinds of hunting dogs. I own both and use them both. We have retrievers, BTW. We do hunting, field trials (under the rules of the Danish Retriver club), conformation and we have made a few litters.
(you are welcome to browse our site www.chessieracing.dk - it's in Danish, but at the bottom of each dog's page is a link to pictures - "billeder" eller "foto" - then you can show your friends pictures of positively trained working dogs.... ;o) ) (commercial break over now)
I hear the comment about not teaching sit from conformation trainers too. I never had any problems with sit. I train sit to be the default behaviour, and three out of our five dogs qualified to be conformation champs...
Good luck and have fun outthere ;o)
Christina and the chessiebunch