From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:59:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
Hi, everyone. Welcome again to our members from the first Discussion, and to our new members, thanks for joining us. Today we'll be continuing to talk about clicker training in the shelter environment. Since last time, I've visited and given clicker introduction workshops at several more shelters in New England, and I've had the pleasure of seeing how quickly a shelter can get involved. It doesn't require everyone's participation, just a few, to get things rolling. A handful of volunteers, and maybe one or two interested staff members, is enough to get those kennels quieted down, and start dogs and cats, and other people, learning to learn. Emma Parsons, our training director at clickertraining.com and also Adoption Counsellor for Yankee Golden Rescue, says that it takes a 'clicker champion' in the shelter, to energize people, to make sure that clickers and soft treats are available, and to keep tabs on the books and videos that help people learn. But that person doesn't have to be an experienced clicker trainer at all; just someone who's enthusiastic about the possibilities. It sure looks that way to me, from my personal sample.
What's been happening in your shelters? Tell us your observations!
Karen Pryor
From: Carol Whitney
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 05:44:23 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] Checking in - out - in
I'm crushed that I wasn't able to avoid having most of my day tied up elsewhere today, but I'll check in several times, and hope to participate somewhat, at least! And will enjoy reading after-the-fact. Karen, thanks for this great idea! I'm sorry I missed your first session of this kind!
Thu, 19 Sep 2002 05:44:18
Carol Whitney, Sooke, B.C., Canada
From: "packmom1200"
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:54:37 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
Hi Everyone,
I just wnted to here from people that use clicker training in the shelter in Mass?
I am going to volunteer at the MSPCA and thought clicker training for shelter dogs was such a great idea I hope my shelter does this.
Gail
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:57:48 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] Good morning
Good morning!
Any one out there?
To: kp_online
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Good morning, Dee! Looking forward to a great discussion day.
Becky Schultz, CPDT
Coordinator of Training and Behavior Programs
Animal Humane Society
Golden Valley,
To: (kp_online)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:02:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
Hi
I haven't starting volunteer yet the orientation is Sept 26. But I know they don't have a trainer, but I thought this was such a great idea maybe they will get into clicker training with the dogs.
Gail
To: kp_online
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Hello from Michigan Dee...Lisa here!
I'll start the ball rolling with a question. Anyone have any ideas on stopping counter surfing? I have found that teaching a pup (minimal reinforcement history) to forage on the floor (never having the opportunity to discover the fun stuff up there) has worked, but for the adolescent dog I've had trouble because the average person doesn't have the skills (timing, etc.) to execute effectively...mat training has been effective for these dogs, but again it takes alot of work for the average person-any thoughts or ideas?
Thanks
To: kp_online
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:10:12 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Hello everyone!
Nice to meet you all!
We use clicker training at the Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue in Hudson, MA to teach such things as loose leash heeling and "Four on the Floor". As you know Goldens, especially the youngsters, are great pullers and jumpers... With the clicker it is a easy to get these difficult behaviors under control so that the dogs can be adopted out much more quickly. If one of my adopters cannot walk a dog, chances are that dog won't be going home.
All it takes is one person in your shelter/rescue that wants to begin working with the clicker to make a profound difference. And remember the learning is true which means that whatever progress you make with each individual dog will never be forgotten.
Looking forward to lots of discussion! :)
Emma Parsons
the Creative Canine
Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue - Adoption Coordinator
Sunshine Books Inc., Inc. - Training Director
APDT/NADOI
To: kp_online
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:11:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
Karen,
My training classes for the public are clicker classes, and I've slowly but surely been able to get our shelter volunteers accustomed to the concept of actually using their interactions with dogs in the shelter to *train* the dogs, rather than just to play or walk them.
I hope to build on that and include clicker in our shelter training, but I've hesitated because we have hundreds of volunteers and it's diffcult training that many people to something new. Our current focus is to get all the volunteers through a training class that will include Gentle Leader use plus introducing shelter training as a concept. When I get enough critical mass support for any kind of training as a concept, I'll be very happy to introduce clicker. A very few volunteers are familiar with clicker and use it on their own, and I've encourage them. We're still fighting kennel staff who don't want the dogs to have "treats". I know we'll get there, because we have implemented lots of great changes in the past couple of years. I need to be patient!
So, I'm looking for inspiration and support for doing this in our shelter in the near future. I know it'll happen, but things can move slowly.
Thanks for your "Changemaker" essay--I use it all the time and it is a life saver for many of us!
Becky Schultz
From: "Becky Schultz"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:13:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Lisa,
My motto is "Never let them practice it wrong"--supervise, supervise, supervise. If they're there supervising, they can teach the dog how to behave. If they aren't there, the dog teaches herself. :-)
Becky Schultz, CPDT
From: Lisalyn Laney
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Right on Becky! The obvious problem is that people just can't grasp that! Throuought my classes the most frequent thing I find myself repeating is "prevent, prevent, prevent!" My concern is that they will take the lazy way and try punishment 'cause another local trainer, or vet *sorry* :( will recommend it-now the balls rolling-where will the positive punishments stop then? Trust me, I teach solid theory-including schedules (and their impact on behaivor) and why positive punishment is so dangerous.
This kind of dilemma goes with the territory of being in this field I know, I just find it frustrating sometimes (join the club right?)
By the way, regarding those in your shelter who don't want to use food-perhaps you could write some handouts on learning theory so that they can realize it's science that tells us it's the most effective way to teach-not just your opinion!
Thanks for your response,
Lis
--- Becky Schultz (beckandcall [at] dufferschultz [dot] com) wrote:
Lisa,
My motto is "Never let them practice it wrong"--supervise, supervise, supervise. If they're there supervising, they can teach the dog how to behave. If they aren't there, the dog teaches herself. :-)
Becky Schultz, CPDT
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:36:04 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
In a message dated 9/19/02 9:06:29 AM, doghuggers [at] yahoo [dot] com writes:
but for the adolescent dog I've had trouble because the average person doesn't have the skills (timing, etc.) to execute effectively...mat training has been effective for these dogs, but again it takes a lot of work for the average person-any thoughts or ideas?
Countersurfing is a big issue for Goldens as well. We first advise our adopters to babygate off the kitchen if they are able to when they are not there so the dog does not climb up on the counters and reinforce himself. Also counters must be kept clean for obvious reasons. People cannot influence the behaviors of the dogs if they are not present in the environment. (I don't know how many people call and ask, for example, how they can get their dog to stop barking at people that walk by the window when they're not home.)
If the owners are in the kitchen preparing a meal, I would either give the dog a frozen Kong to work on while preparations are being made (management) or I would click and toss the dog a treat for anything the dog does where his four feet remains on the floor. He can stand next to me calmly, I will c/t. He can go lie down, I will c/t. It doesn't take long before this click/treat game will tire him out and he will probably go and lie down anyway.
If the dog simply climbs on the counter any chance he gets then I would not allow him in the kitchen unattended and the kitchen would now become his training space in the house. All clicker sessions will be conducted in the kitchen area. As the dog learns different behaviors in the kitchen, the dog will calm with the clicker training (thinking of other things) and now the environment will suggest calmness to the dog. The counter will soon fade into the background because the clicker training will have been much more reinforcing to the dog.
Hope this helps...
Em
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:39:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Good morning all!!
We are happy to say all at the Upper Valley is going well.
Mary Taylor (Volunteer Coordinator) loves looking out her window and watching the volunteers work with the shelter dogs. They are all learning. Both the dogs and the volunteers. what Great about Clicker training Is that every one wins!!! Human and animal!!
Its OK to "click" at the wrong time a couple of times because as soon as you see that the dog is now offering what your clicking you can modify the timing of the click and soon what ever it was doing (that might not have been what you wanted) will go away because your timing is now better and you can click what you were really wanting. So don't worry if you click at the wrong time! :-) Just keep on Clicking!!!
Dee
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:40:10 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] True Learning
In a message dated 9/19/02 9:31:49 AM, doghuggers [at] yahoo [dot] com writes:
By the way, regarding those in your shelter who don't want to use food-perhaps you could write some handouts on learning theory so that they can realize it's science that tells us it's the most effective way to teach-not just your opinion!
Definitely a great point! People in general do not realize that there is a difference between true learning and luring. Some classes that they might have attended with their dogs may not have pushed past the luring stage. Hence they think that they will always have to use food to get the behavior. (Dog does it for the food, not for them..)
That's what I like about clicker training. It forces you to use true learning!
em
To: (kp_online)
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:47:05 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] counter surfing
Great question here are some Ideas..
Managment is the only way to help this criminal!!
The clicker works great for this Just Watch your dog!!
Counter Surfing
How do you stop your dog from scavenging food from your kitchen counter?
This undesirable behavior is also known as "counter surfing". The answer is "Watch the dog!" Until your dog understands house rules, the first rule to training a good dog is "watch the dog".
Counter-surfing is a management and training issue. Remember - watch the dog! If you forget to watch the dog, roll up a section of newspaper, secure it with a rubber band, grasp it firmly in your hand and hit YOURSELF on the head repeatedly (with that old rolled up news papper) while saying, "I forgot to watch the dog! I forgot to watch the dog!" :-)
Dogs are not complicated. They like to eat and play. The dog sees food and eats food. If food were never on the counters the dog would quit looking for food on them.
I devote myself to keeping my new puppy "Dazzle" under supervision for the first nine months of her life. Whenever I'm in the kitchen, I want my puppy to lie quietly while I'm doing my chores. I will leave a tag line* on her just in case she tries to jump up. Then if she starts to jump I can step on the lead and she won't be able to complete the jump. When her feet are back on the floor, or even better when she lies down again, I quietly praise her and give a small food treat or something good to chew on. I try to make being on the floor of the kitchen a great place to be. If you have a really big dog then tether him to something he can't move but close enough that he can smell and see whatever food you are making.
It only takes a couple of days before the puppy is offering to lie down as soon as I go into the kitchen. Then I just toss her bits of her food every once in a while (not from the table). I keep one eye on her the whole time and if I see the nose go up, I watch for the gathering of muscles that means she is about to explore and say "Leave It!" in a nice tone. The pup is then distracted and looks at me. I reinforce her with a tidbit that I have ready. During that time I NEVER leave her unsupervised unless the kitchen countertops are clear of food, the dishwasher door is closed, there are no dirty dishes with lick-able food, and the garbage can is out of reach. Yes, I have an open kitchen; yes, it's a hassle, but if you can get this groundwork in, you don't have a lifelong counter surfing problem to deal with. If I don't have time to watch the dog, then she is in her crate with something good to chew on.
I use the same method with the adult shelter dogs that I bring into my home. The system for training dogs to have excellent house manners is prevention, supervision and rewarding alternate behaviors. Most of the shelter dogs are great counter surfers because no one has taken the time to teach them anything else. Remember, dogs do what works and if taking something off the counter gets them a great treat then why not do it! But if you change the rules and help the dog understand that he/she will be reinforced for not counter surfing then you will succeed.
You can also practice by holding your dog on a lead and walking by some food on a coffee table (but make darn sure the dog can't ever reach the food). Stop just short of the dog being able to reach the food. As soon as the dog looks back at you because you stopped, take a step back, Click or as Yess! and then offer the dog a treat. Repeat this many times until the dog won't even look at what's on the table. Put the dog in the crate and remove the items till the next time you can practice.
Don't ever leave a young or new dog in the kitchen with food on the counter! Not ever!!! Behavior that is reinforced is most likely to be repeated. If the dog finds wonderful food on the counter and gets to eat it, you have let your dog get reinforced for counter surfing. If you can't watch the dog, crate the dog or keep him with you. It is as simple as that.
Your dog needs to learn that even sniffing for what is on the counter is off limits, and that Mom or Dad have more fun stuff for being on the floor and doing good things.
I currently live with 4 dogs, ages 15yrs to 71/2 months. All of them understand that stuff on the counter or table including the coffe table are off limits and far less interesting than I am, with my tricks and treats! They want to be good because good is fun! If your dog becomes a counter surfer, it is because you allowed it to happen! Don't let bad habits get started! Watch your dog!
*A Tag line is a short leash for management purposes. It should be long enough that you can easily pick up and or step on it. Inside 3-6 feet long should do for most breeds. (Outside 30+ feet)
Enjoy Dee
From: Carol Whitney
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:51:03 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
I have to head out the door in a few minutes, but wanted to comment on Becky's post before I go. (and hope to be back later today).
At 08:11 09/19/02 -0500, Becky Schultz wrote:
Karen,
My training classes for the public are clicker classes, and I've slowly but surely been able to get our shelter volunteers accustomed to the concept of actually using their interactions with dogs in the shelter to *train* the dogs, rather than just to play or walk them.
Becky - how aware are these people that in fact, dogs are learnng all the time? What I'm wondering is, whether you can find a way to help these volunteers understand that their "just playing with" or "just walking" the dogs is - well, learning, for the dogs - so, those volunteers ARE in fact "training" the dogs.
I'm wondering, too, how many shelter volunteers might be persuaded to read _Don't Shoot The Dog_. When I read it, it found it astounding, eye-opening, mind-blowing - and very much revealing of what interaction between human and dog, dog and human, is and leads to. Although the book is often more human-to-human oriented, it really works to help with human-dog, dog-human orientation and comprehension (through observation).
Also, for anybody working with a clicker, I like Karen's article (sorry, Karen, can't refer to it by title right now) that she gave on acceptance of her award from the Animal Behavior Association (May 1997). That article is a real mind-blower, and I think would be useful to those of you who are working so intensively in shelters. The volunteers might not track it well, but you would, Becky. One of the great points in that article is Karen explaining how the feedback from the clicker works for the human user of it.
And, Karen, I share with Becky an ongoing appreciation of your article "On Being A ChangeMaker." It's one of the most useful articles I know.
I hope to build on that and include clicker in our shelter training, but I've hesitated because we have hundreds of volunteers and it's diffcult training that many people to something new.
Well, I see Emma Parsons saying you only need one. Maybe two? I think this really works. Get one, or two, going, and, without proselytizing in words, you might see three before too long. And so forth.
Our current focus is to get all the volunteers through a training class that will include Gentle Leader use plus introducing shelter training as a concept.
Not clicker in there? I believe the clicker has such a powerful classical (Pavlovian) influence on dogs that if a few very simple protocols could be set up, say, for when a volunteer gets a dog out of its kennel, the volunteers would find it so helpful that they'd "convert" easily, that far (sorry, I'm not even awake yet, so I hope that makes sense).
When I get enough critical mass support for any kind of training as a concept, I'll be very happy to introduce clicker.
I think the critical mass would build itself, if you start as Emma suggests.
A very few volunteers are familiar with clicker and use it on their own, and I've encourage them. We're still fighting kennel staff who don't want the dogs to have "treats".
This, to me, brings up an organizational question. Who makes policy in the shelter? And wow, I can just see some of the dilemma here. A human volunteer who thinks giving dogs "treats" is a Bad Thing will be easily offended!
I know we'll get there, because we have implemented lots of great changes in the past couple of years. I need to be patient!
Patient and pushy?
So, I'm looking for inspiration and support for doing this in our shelter in the near future. I know it'll happen, but things can move slowly.
Yes. Even so, those small steps are effective.
Thanks for your "Changemaker" essay--I use it all the time and it is a life saver for many of us!
I refer to it often.
Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:50:54
Carol Whitney, Sooke, B.C., Canada
From: "Miguel"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:52:49 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Whoo hooo
whoo hoo im so glad i caught this from the begaining this time im looking forward to hearing all the great ideas you wonderfull people have My name is Miguel i Work at a trining Fauicility in colorado and we work in partnership with a Colorado Springs All Breed Rescue we have regular clicker classes for all rescued dog while in the foster program so its kinda like a smaller version of what the shelters are begaining to do and i can tell ya the benifits are astronomical in insureing permenent placement in a foreverhome
To: (kp_online)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Animal caretakers often worry about treats--might make the dog fat, might upset the stomach (more kennel cleaning to do!) etc.
I think perhaps their idea of a treat is different from ours. Teaching horse people to click I have been startled, several times, to see someone click and then go into the grain bucket and hold out a double handful of grain, half a pint or more, and stand there while the horse eats it all up. No matter how big the horse is, a teaspoon of grain is plenty to make the click worth earning! Same with kennels, sometimes their idea of one treat is a giant-size dog biscuit.
I think it can help to point out that the treats we use are very small (pea-size, is my preference) and that they are not about feeding the dog, but just to maintain the power of the clicker.
In the beginning of course you have to keep the rate of reinforcement very high so the dog has a good chance to catch on and start focusing, and that can shock some people, especially veterinarians. At Tufts Animal Expo last weekend here in Boston (a huge four-day event for veterinarians and other animal people) Emma and I and three wonderful volunteers from the Quincy, MA Animal Shelter gave a demonstration of clicker training various shelter dogs. Quincy volunteer Jeannie Ellard and I did my favorite loose-leash demo, converting a freight-train type puller into a nice happy attentive dog walking at heel on a loose leash in five minutes. Of course it took a lot of clicks, since I started with one paw moving one step, and jillions of fast clicks while we stretched that to travelling ten yards or more. In the process I saw the 'My goodness that's much too much food" look on many watching faces.
So when we finished I did the math for them. "How many treats did Baxter get? Anyone count? No? Anyone want to guess? Fifty, Sixty? I'd say that's about right, maybe even more. Now, how big are these treats?" I held one up. "Fifty of these treats is one quarter of a regular hotdog. Look at Baxter." (Baxter is a big strong husky pitbull.) "How much of his daily ration is that? Not much." End of speech. They all could see the change that had come over Baxter, with that little amount of food. The wary expressions turned into thoughtful nods.
KP
To: kp_online
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:08:24 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Good day!
Good morning everyone!
I'm sure this will be a great discussion day!
Biól. Alejandra Pardo
pardomen [at] psi [dot] net [dot] mx
BioCAN
Mexico City
Mexico
To: (kp_online)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] change maker article
Okay, folks, since this has come up several times, here's the "Change Maker" piece. I got the title and concept from some friends who were trying to get hospitals to help mothers breastfeed (instead of hindering them). It doesn't matter what the goal is, the battle is usually the same.
On Being A Change Maker
by: Karen Pryor 11.98
So you've become a clicker trainer. Naturally you are very excited. You want other people around you to stop using punishment-based methods and start clicking. So you introduce the clicker at your dog club or high school or wherever you are using it. And guess what: people not only don't change, they get mad at you.
What do you do now?
Here's a biologist's look at the process of making changes.
What people do when you start to institute a change (in chronological order)
- Ignore you
- Pretend to agree but actually do nothing
- Resist, delay, obstruct
- Openly attack you (the dangerous phase, but also a sign that change is starting)
- Absorb
- Utilize
- Take credit
- Proselytize
What people say in the process of accepting the change
- "That might work for your population but not for mine." (absorbing)
- "I can use it but not for anything important." (absorbing and utilizing)
- "Some of my people can use it if they feel they need to." (utilizing)
- "Oh yes, we've been doing that for years, it's quite good." (utilizing and taking credit)
- "We've come up with a really incredible program, you should try it." (taking credit and proselytizing)
How the change maker can react effectively
- When they ignore you, find allies and persist.
- Don't be misled by lip service. Find allies and persist.
- Meet resistance with persistence. Move around the resistance; try other avenues.
- The stage of open attack is a touchy time. People can get fired, for example. Keep your head down, but persist. Don't take the attack personally, even if it is a personal attack. Attack is information; it tells you:
-
- You're getting somewhere: change IS happening, causing extinction-induced aggression.
- Your attacker is frightened. Empathize.
- Your attacker still believes in the efficacy of aversives.
- Absorbing and utilizing: this stage can last a year or more. Maintain generous schedules of reinforcement.
- They're taking credit for your idea? By all means, let them; your goal is the change. Credit is a low-cost reinforcer and people who want it don't satiate. Give it away in buckets.
- Are they pitching the change? Good. If you want to change something else, you now have new allies.
To: (kp_online)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Great topic Karen!!
In class we talk to the everyone about "Treats" explaining that its not how big a Treat its the offering and giving that makes the difference. That at home the dogs kibble works really well with not distractions and at the shelter we hang treat bags on the front of the kennels with the dogs dog food in it. One just needs to calculate how much you are using for the day. But when you go outside with the whole world you will need the "good stuff." I did a feisty dog class last night (first class with dogs present" I made sure that I had some REally Great stuff. Even though the owners had been talked to the week before at finding out what the dog would work for they are not always very inventive:-)
So I had cooked up Swedish meat balls and cut up roast bee and chicken and had some baby food jars of baby meats. (these work or even the most finicky dogs) Then lots of string cheese for some reason dogs love it. I had also cooked up some chicken hearts with lots of Garlic.
But when your working with really volatile dogs you have to have something really good for them or else they can't think..
Now anticipation is the really Big Part of any Training!! So I talk to the dog and say things like.. Ooooh look what I have ...yummy meat balls...ooohhooo!!! It gets them going and I don't just give immediately.
But let them smell it for a few seconds and they click anything I can sniffing looking away from the other dogs using my body to block the dog so it will look up at me . fast and furiously. Soon I have its attention and I can move on to something else. Start by luring it into a sit or down then I usually have something for it to step on. Clicking as fast as possible.
Trying Not to look for the whole picture just little pieces of the picture.
Dee Ganley CPDT
Dog Training Services
member APDT 4944
Check out our website at: http://www.lunnflutes.com/deesdogs.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Pryor
To: kp_online
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Animal caretakers often worry about treats--might make the dog fat, might upset the stomach (more kennel cleaning to do!) etc.
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:21:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Carol Whitney's comments
Thanks, Carol, for kind words about DSTD etc. The article she mentions is on www.clickertraining.com
History of Clicker Training II
To read long articles on the site, scroll down to the bottom, hit "Printer friendly version" and print them out. For me at least I'd much rather read something on the couch and on paper instead of at the computer and on screen.
I think it's better to start with the clicker than to introduce it after you've already been teaching some training and theory and so on. Some of the kennel exercises from Upper Valley, such as eye contact, and no barking, and sitting to get noticed, can be clicked by total beginners, without even having to handle the dog or go in with it. Volunteers can get the hang of the timing through the kennel gate. The click provides very important feedback and teaches timing without any words being needed. And I really prefer to start people off with Peggy Tillman's Clicking With your Dog Step by Step in Pictures, where they can see what to do without thinking about it too much, and THEN if they are interested read DSTD or more about theory.
Go to our website and the Shelter Resource Center, on the bottom left of the home page you'll find a number of "How to" papers, including several from Dee Ganley and Nancy Lyon, that are neat exercises volunteers can use clicks and treats for and practice with, as they are doing their walking and playing with the dogs. It's much simpler supervising, too, than trying to teach a formal class, or at least it seems so to me.
Karen Pryor
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:42:38 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Pryor
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 8:54 AM
>>Animal caretakers often worry about treats--might make the dog fat, might upset the stomach (more kennel cleaning to do!) etc.<<
I was worried about puking and even bloat as the dogs are so active. I do see some puking, but using my best kibble (1 cup for 25# of dog is easy math and fits nicely into pockets and baitbags) and Cheerios work Great! It's the little things... :)
I also try and pair as much good things together as possible, (I learned from discussion #1 !) then I have lots of rewards that work, and not just food. Also, when the environment is stimulating, the dogs don't want to take the food, although I've found green dogs may not take the food reward but will still make the association. I was nervous at first, but the dogs said not to be ;) .
Oh, the look on some people's faces when I show them how small the dogs' treats are while they are learning! I keep attention, right? And showing when using a premium kibble, a meal goes piece by piece productively. The difference is putting down a bowl with little (sit) to no interaction, to having a meaningful exchange.
So great to have another opportuntity like this to learn and relate!
Thanks, Karen, again and again, and to all,
Diane
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:52:19 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] behavior protocols at UVHS
I thought some of you might want to see what we have started at UVHS it took 3 yrs with just myself at first (the power of one) working with usually one of the more difficlult dogs so it could be adopted. till today this is what expcted for all dogs at UVHS.
if anyone would like a copy of some of these they are on karens web site. with other to follow. You can ask karen about a small book that she had put together for the "tufts" confence just recently.
UVHS CANINE BEHAVIOR PROTOCOLS
(* Refer to attached documents by behavior protocol number for detailed training instructions)
- *Collars & Gentle Leaders: All dogs in the shelter must be fitted with an orange Premier collar and an orange Gentle Leader.
-
- Proper fit for Gentle Leaders = two fingers must fit comfortably under the collar area and the nose loop should be able to slip off the bridge of the dog's nose. Always double check that the GL on the kennel door fits the dog properly when putting it on.
- A few dogs will either be too fearful or so unused to a leash that a Gentle Leader will not be used. So will use the "body wrap" for these dogs.
- *Quiet, Sit and/or Four on the Floor in Kennels:
When walking up and down the kennels, always reinforce dogs with food or praise for good behaviors - being quiet, sitting and/or have all four paws on the floor. - *Exit/Entrance Kennel:
When trying to get a dog out of its kennel, the dog must sit and or be calm and not try to dash out the door. When you exit the kennel the dog should wait for you to leave first. The dog should be asked to sit, down, or wait before it may exit the kennel. Once back in the kennel if the dog tries to follow you out, just toss a treat out the doggie door and then exit. For the non-food motivated dog, use a body block to exit. - *Wait at the Door:
The dog must wait at each exit before it is allowed to through the doorway. The dog should always wait at the door. Use your body to block the dog from trying to charge out first. If you need to body block, make sure the dog is given a treat once it backs off and looks at you for permission to go out. Once the dog waits, you may choose whether you precede the dog out the door. - *Sit for Greeting:
When the dog greets people, s/he must sit or have four paws on the ground. - *Loose Leash Walking:
No dogs should ever be allowed to pull while walking. If the dog pulls then stop and take a few steps backward. The dog must learn that pulling will not get them where they want to go. When the dog walks nicely click & treat them. - *Relax Down: To improve calm self-control with distractions, the dog should be asked to give relax downs in various situations - while you are sitting in the get- acquainted room or someone's office, when meeting another dog and handler out walking, or standing near the play cages (choose a distance that your dog can relax down and watch other dogs). Use the step on the leash method.
- *Food Bowl/Trade for Treat:
Food should be offered as a reward for a sit, wait, or relax down whenever possible. Dogs with food bowl issues should have addition treats tossed in their bowl while eating or petted while eating. Dogs should be offered a food trade for treats or toys.
The dogs should have to sit or relax down while waiting for the food bowl to be placed on the ground. - *Name Recognition:
It is very important to always reinforce name recognition when you work with a dog. Say the dog's name and when the dog looks at you click or say yes and give a treat! - Reinforcing Positive Behavior: All dogs should be treated when they choose calm behaviors (i.e. not pulling, four on the floor, sit for greeting, waiting to enter/exit, relax down, passing other dogs quietly, etc.). They should be treated for attention to you (i.e. eye contact, name recognition, interactive play, etc.)
- Not Positively Reinforcing Negative Behavior: Be conscious of not reinforcing undesirable behavior such as using your hands to push a dog down who is jumping up instead of ignoring and waiting for a sit which you can treat or praising fearful behavior instead of treating for eye contact.
- *Body Blocking:
-
- Use your body to get between the dog and where he wants to go. For dog's trying to push out of the kennel, you step into the dog's path of travel. Click and treat when the dog backs away.
- If the dog is staring or trying to aggress on another dog or is over stimulated by someone or something then step in front of the dog to block their sight line. Click and treat the moment they redirect their attention to you.
- Body wrap: You take a 6-8 foot leash hooked to a martingale type collar with the snapped hooked to the "D" ring and with this up on at the back of the dogs neck (not under the dogs chin) and then loop the leash behind and under the front legs and then under and around the barrel of the dog and then feed the end of the lead back though the loop of the martingale collar. So you now have a pulley system around the dogs middle.
Dee www.uvhs.org
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:57:05 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] YGRR/Tufts clicker training,
In a message dated 9/19/02 10:06:51 AM, waggin [at] nacogtx [dot] com writes:
Do you find the same to be true, also, and how do you handle it? People side more than dog side? Of course, I find getting thru a new concept to the people much more challenging, as the dogs don't think that they 'Don't need to learn this', they just go with the flow :) .
Hi Diane,
At YGRR(.org) I have developed a program where the Tufts veterinary students come to Hudson to help us train the rescue Golden Retrievers. LLW is, of course, one of the primary behaviors we teach the students to teach our dogs.
All students have a clicker training orientation before they actually work with the dogs. This is mandatory.They handle the clicker until they feel comfortable with it and we do basic exercises like, "click when the tennis ball reaches it's highest point...", etc... Next, we learn how to put a Gentle Leader on a dog correctly by using our Sandicast Golden in the front hall. Once this is mastered, we get a real dog to work with.
We do use the same method on each dog, however, the criteria for what we will click with each dog is going to be different. For example, there are some dogs that we need to click and feed just for tolerating the Gentle Leader being put on their face in comparison to those who accept the Gentle Leader right off and then we click and feed for one step of LLW, two steps, and so forth.
The students are wonderful. They are eager to learn and greatly accept the lessons being taught. The rewards have been awesome! Within a couple of sessions we can teach a dog, who has never been on a leash before, to walk nicely on our left side. This easily transfers to the new adopter who takes the dog out for his first walk.
Because we have different students coming in, the behavior generalizes quickly. I always make sure that different students are training different dogs in a matter of minutes. We switch dogs constantly throughout a training session. We also switch environments constantly within the sessions. We go from the house, to the training building, to the woods, to the driveway, all in one session. Again this helps the behavior to generalize more quickly.
I am with the students constantly so I can keep the training method pretty much the same. If a student simply did not want to use the clicker, they would not be allowed to participate.
>>how do you handle getting the person to pick up the reins?>>
We give each adopter a profile of the dog that they are adopting. For example, if we know the dog is a jumper, as in the example you gave, we give them instructions (a lesson at YGRR) on how to continue working with the dog successfully. One of my goals is to make up individual sheets to address each problem behavior, like jumping, countersurfing, freeshaping the dog to go into his crate, etc.. utilizing the concept of clicker training and put it in the clicker kit so that each clicker kit is customized for each individual dog. (That's next on my agenda list!)
I have also found that after a dog is adopted, there can be some other behaviors that need to be worked on. My latest was a dog that went home, and after two weeks decided that he could not go up the stairs. Once he was on the stairs he was fine. He just didn't want to begin going up the stairs himself. So I gave his owners instructions on how to click and feed him for the various criterias: c/t when he looked at the bottom stair, c/t as he walked towards it, c/t when he put a paw on it, etc.. Within a couple of training sessions the dog was happily going up the stairs.
One of the most profound examples at YGRR was when we had a dog that came in who had previously lived in the basement for the past 6 years of his life. He came to YGRR with no social skills at all. Within a week we were able to teach him how to walk on a Gentle Leader nicely and to keep four feet on the floor momentairly.
We adopted him out the following week and, after a week, I checked in with his new owner. She began to tell me of how she almost brought him back because, when she got him home, he was totally unmanageable in the house. He leaped from chair to chair, was up on the counter, etc... Even though we had briefed her on his behavior, and the fact that he would need more followup training, she was aghast! (Her husband was also in NY at the time so she was by herself to manage his difficult behavior.) So she said that she put his Gentle Leader on him and brought him into the living room with her. She simply clicked and fed him for him simply sitting with her. Within about a half an hour, he was asleep at her feet. Her husband returned the next day from his travels.
Conrad has remained in his new home and is happy to this day. This was also extremely reinforcing for the students who had helped Conrad learn some social skills in such a short period of time.
Hope this helps...
Em
From: "Becky Schultz"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:55:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
My best response to people who come in already punishing their dogs for something like counter surfing is "Is it working?" Obviously, the answer is no, it's not, or they wouldn't be asking. That's a great intro to say, well, then how about we try this way? That's my favorite way to avoiding being in a position of contradicting a vet who may be sending me referrals, yet still in the Dark Ages about training.
Our volunteers are all on board about using food for training, but our kennel supervisor is a "dark ages" trainer who claims we're giving the dogs diarrhea with too many treats. I haven't seen it, and we're making substantial headway, but it's like pulling teeth. Progress, absolutely, but it's slow.
Also, our average length of stay on the adoption floor for our dogs is 3 days, so the dogs aren't here a really long time. I'd love to get some basic behavior installed in them, and think that our Sit at the kennel door protocol training has definitely resulted in adoptions because the dog was more presentable. Our volunteers are *wonderful*, but they are not dog trainers--yet! LOL
Becky Schultz, CPDT
Coordinator of Animal Training and Behavior Programs
Animal Humane Society
Golden Valley, Minnesota
From: "Becky Schultz"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:01:15 -0500
Subject: Re: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Karen,
I agree completely about the treats! In my classes we use diced hot dogs, and I claim to have the Hog Dog Queen title, because I can get 600 pieces out of one hotdog! As they used to tell us in Weight Watchers, "it isn't the amount of food that matters, it's the *idea* of getting the food"! That didn't fly with me, but it's a great concept! LOL
Becky Schultz, CPDT
Coordinator of Animal Training and Behavior Programs
Animal Humane Society
Golden Valley, Minnesota
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:13:46 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] clicker shelter dog training
-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Schultz
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 8:12 AM
>>I hope to build on that and include clicker in our shelter training, but I've hesitated because we have hundreds of volunteers and it's diffcult training that many people to something new.<<
Becky, You? Hesitate? I read you on other lists, and didn't think you were a shy one ;-) . I hesitated, thinking I couldn't in a situation like this or didn't need to, and I was wrong. I could've been doing better all that time! Now, I start new dogs in on the right foot, and find that even dogs that I've known and were always so good and easy to keep, can learn and be better, too!
>> When I get enough critical mass support for any kind of training as a concept, I'll be very happy to introduce clicker.<<
Why not the other way around? Intro the clicker and the critical mass will appear.
I have had the greatest success with people by taking a dog that keeps his distance and setting them up to treat the dog. I do instruct on people postures (and clicking has made This easier, too!) and I lead the discussion with my clicks, and the person treats, and the dog warms up to the stranger and the person now feels So good since just minutes earlier this dog would have nothign to do with them. Then I get them to try clicking for themselves, and we can talk about what they want from a dog and how to get it so pleasantly.
If this is an employee (I only have 1 part-time), one at a time works even when there's more than that, and if you have more than one willing to try, it's a group lesson and then your newbies will help turn on your hold-outs, as long as you yourself are not a hold-out ;) . They Are already working with he dogs, right?
I try to notice each TINY setback, like the handler looses the dogs attention right before the gate opens, so I insert a lesson, and the person quickly experiences a difference that they can direct. I walk with them, "notice the dog pulls in 2 steps so c/t (sometimes just treat and sometimes just click and move...) in one for a few and Then try for two...". If they are consistant, they will have a huge puller walking nicely for them in no time, as it's a repeated routine throughout the day. Also, they can see me work the same or different dog successfully, even if I have to work step by step, and that is motivating I think because they can see it doesn't just Happen - I have to work on making it happen.
Each of us can only truly do for ourselves, and then we can help others.
Peace and Light,
Diane
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:24:04 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] behavior protocols at UVHS
What they are doing at UV is really the most complete clicker program I've seen so far, and very creative. In our Shelter Resource Center there's an article by me--a case history, really--with pictures--of the Upper Valley experience. I do recommend taking a look, it's a fun story and very inspiring.
As a Special offer at our booth at Tufts Animal Expo our company put together a printout of much of the material that's available on line in the Shelter Resource Center, into one 45 p. notebook. We sold it for $7.95, to cover the duplicating costs. There are some copies left, I believe, and you can order one by calling 1-800-47CLICK --there will be S&H attached. Or you could go to the website and capture all the shelter-related files and make your own for nothing.
:-)
There are some great ideas in there if you are just getting started. Including a useful piece about ranking your own shelter to see where you fit in as a clicker shelter...you may be further along than you think!
KP
From: "batndwn"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:22:11 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Good Morning
Reply-To: kp_online
Hi everyone,
Beth Hatch here from St. Paul, MN. Good Morning Becky. I've been chatting with the folks over here at the Humane Society on the Other Side of the Mississippi about starting a clicker training program. I'd really like some advice on the organizational component of this. It seems to me that a few volunteers who are committed to doing the work could be enough to get the ball rolling (and I have someone who, I think, would be willing to be the "Clicker Cheerleader" who already volunteers over here.
My thinking was that we'd start with a few people. We'd train them to do a few simple things like put GLs on correctly and c/t for LLW when out with the dogs. We'd have a few dogs at the shelter who were "set aside" as clicker guinea pigs that would not be walked or worked with by non-clicker volunteers for the duration of a few weeks while we train new behaviors. And I suspect that when some folks start to see results with those dogs, they will want to jump on the bandwagon.
Can I get some feedback on how to set up such an organizational system so that it will work? We need to present the shelter administrators some reasonable plan for getting this stuff done, and I want to write them a cogent proposal.
Thanks a lot everyone, for your help.
Sincerely,
Beth Hatch Good Dog! Training Svcs. St. Paul, MN
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:30:23 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] YGRR/Tufts clicker training
>>All students have a clicker training orientation before they actually work with the dogs. This is mandatory.They handle the clicker until they feel comfortable with it and we do basic exercises like, "click when the tennis ball reaches it's highest point...", etc... <<
Thank you, Em, this certainly Does help!
I like the teaching clicker via tennis ball! It will help alot if I take some time and help my helpers get comfortable witht he clicker before actually using it. Something I was not doing! I need them to just jump in and help and I show them as we go, dog by dog, but it will be better if I take some more time with just them and the clicker.
All of this is super! Gives me stuff to work on.
Thanks,
Diane
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:25:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] YGRR/Tufts clicker training
Great story Em!
Ya gotta love them all!!!
Dee Ganley CPDT
Dog Training Services
member APDT 4944
Check out our website at: http://www.lunnflutes.com/deesdogs.htm
From: jean.ellard
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:29:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] behavior protocols at UVHS
Hi, I'm coming in late on this.
I live in Quincy where we have recently started using Clicker training at our Shelter. Karen came to give our volunteers a demo of how to use the clicker. Our animals have responded really well to them. We were also previledged to take three of our dogs to the Tuffs expo for Karen's demo (thanks Karen). I work with the dogs, their eyes light up when they see a clicker person coming. We currently have an extreem case of separation anxiety dog which I'm just starting to work with. With only two session Rosie has shown impovement.
My sister lives around the corner from UV so I was privledged to go view the shelter. They are doing amazing things up there with their animals and clickers. If you ever get a chance to go see the shelter I would highly recommend it.
Jeanie
From: "Anne Kreider"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:30:07 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Where/How to Begin?
Would you please refer me to the "beginner's" reference list?
Population:
Sanctuary for senior/special needs dogs and all collies(also horses, goats, rabbits, poultry and cats).
-many blind and visually impaired dogs
-many dogs with undesirable behaviors as reported by receiving shelter
-collies are very "soft" and many come with histories of abuse
Location: Central Ohio
Needs: Train the trainer type of introductory course for myself (no current dog-handling volunteers) and resource guides for further independent study and confirmation of my own learning!
Thanks for all leads:
Anne Kreider
Frolic Farm Sanctuary
Alexandria, OH
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:35:13 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] working with the shy dogs!!
Working with the shy dogs has always been difficult for me. I love the big bold obnoxious type. the more bouncy the better. So helping these dogs has been harder for me Here is a true story of three shy dogs and suing the power of teaching a "targeting" behavior. enjoy..I think this is on Karen site too!
Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting
By Dee Ganley/ Nancy Lyon
How the Upper Valley Humane Society (UVHS) uses targeting to help shy dogs develop confidence.
Shy dogs are an especially difficult challenge in the shelter environment because it is so hard for them to establish trust. We have found that teaching these dogs to target our hand can help many shy dogs develop confidence with people fairly quickly. You can't begin to try this method until there is at least one person (staff or volunteer) the shy dog has a little trust in.
Target training teaches the dog to touch his nose to some object or person for a click and then treat. (If the shy dog is very noise reactive, you may choose to use a "soft" voice marker or a muffled clicker)
We begin with the "trusted" person teaching this behavior.
- The trainer squishes the smelly food treat into the space between the second and third fingers down near the palm of their hand.
- Standing sideways with the target hand nearest the dog, the trainer waits for the dog to sniff her hand. When he sniffs, he gets a click or "Yess" and then can lick out the treat from between the fingers or she can just open her fingers and let the treat fall to the ground. This step is repeated 10-15 times.
- Then the food reward is removed from the hand and you begin again. When the dog sniffs/touches your hand, he is clicked and treated BUT now the treat comes from the other non-target hand. If the dog is confidently reaching out to touch your hand, then start moving the hand a little so his nose has to follow it before the click/treat. This step is repeated until the dog can follow your hand around the building in all directions. Before moving to #4 the dog should be able to "touch" repeatedly before the click/treat. The "touch" to your hand should be a nice strong push, not just a soft touch.
- The next step involves having the dog transfer the target to an object. A chair works great for this step. For some dogs you may need to help them at first by going back to putting a treat between your fingers. Rub the treat on the surface of the chair and lead the dog's nose to chair with your smelly target hand. Click when his nose touches the chair. When the dog gets the idea of touching the new object with his nose you can begin to work on sending him from greater and greater distances. Once the dog becomes "hooked" on touching his nose to the target it's time to take it on the road.
- Your shy dog should be confident enough about what he gets for targeting that you can try making a "new" person target. This stranger needs to be careful not to make any eye contact and to be relaxed, sideways to the dog, and maybe even to yawn! Have the stranger sit in the chair with its hand down by one side with the palm outwards. The yummy treat is squished between two fingers, but is easy for the dog to lick out. Don't click when the dog takes a treat. Just let him make his own approach, replace each treat until he has taken a treat from the stranger 10 times.
- Now the stranger has NO treat in her hand. You should be standing still just looking and calmly talking to the stranger. Wait for the dog to "touch" the stranger's now empty palm. Click/treat for the touch. As soon as the dog finishes his treat, ask for "touch". If the dog goes to the stranger's palm, click and a big jackpot would be well deserved. Build on targeting stranger's hands - changing posture, location, gender, etc. Targeting a hand make contacting strangers a comfortable behavior providing us with a positive way to reward social interaction.
- Be sure to take your targeting outside. Start someplace safe, then go on walks. Have other volunteers come up and have your dog target their hand. Remember, when you're first training in a new environment you may need to go back to the first step for a while until your dog can perform the behavior reliably. Never be afraid to back up! Fearful dogs have a much harder time becoming operant. Much of the environment is aversive to them which is why developing a reward for touching through targeting the hand gives you a way to move them around the environment and feel safe and reinforced. Don't expect too much too soon.
An interesting experience with 3 shy shelter dogs:
One day during a staff training session, I had the three of our shelter kennel staff (because they have the closest relationship) bring three fearful dogs into the training center. I then had the rest of us (14 people) sit on the training center floor in a big semi circle. We sat front to back in a circle so one shoulders faced out. Everyone had some nice smelly hotdogs.
None of these dogs had ever been in the building so simply entering the building was a scary challenge. The boldest "Justine" of three made it into the large training room and as soon as she smelled the treats she was just walking around the circle, wagging her tail and unconcerned. Food was definitely working for her. Then I had everyone put out their outside hand palm up close to the floor. The dog then started touching their hand to investigate it and I would click and they would treat! At this point I had the handler unleash her. Come to find out she knew some really cute tricks. She could dance around in a circle and wave while sitting up. Just really cute!!
The next 4-month-old puppy "Cookie" was really afraid. I had this handler sit on the floor and just start clicking any brave forward motion. Of course she immediately started verbally cueing to the puppy "its ok"! So I asked her to please not speak to the puppy, just click. The puppy then started following the other dog around and her body posture started changing. Yippee! We were on a roll.
The third dog "Solomon" couldn't muster up the strength to come in the front door so his handler (who is one of our trainers too) just let the young dog walk around and build up his confidence. They ended up coming in through a garage door instead of the front door, which was great thinking! Now they are in an adjacent room to all of us with viewing windows. Dave just sat down to watch and the young dog came up and sat on his lap. The windows between the two rooms slide open and soon Dave stepped through the window. The young dog watched from the chair for a while and then jumped through the window to be with everyone. He never looked back once he knew the other dogs were getting something he wasn't. He began cruising around the room grabbing treats. At this point (about 10 minutes of sitting on the floor) we all stood up. This scared "Cookie" the 4-month old a bit, but once she saw that the other dogs were ok with us standing she started to move around the room and following the other two.
Once we were standing, we started calling the dogs by name only. Soon all three were running back and fourth when called to all 18 of us! What a sight Wish we had it on tape!
These three dogs made tremendous strides in less than 30 minutes. I think it worked so well because;
- All the dogs were good together.
- One dog was only cautious not seriously shy, so the presence of the food overrode her fear quickly. Once "Justine' was acclimated she provides a "role" model for the others. In my opinion Selecting a "nurse" dog leader would be important to the overall success. looking back on this if the first one had stayed scared I don't think we would have been so successful).
- Having all the humans sitting sideways made them as easy to approach as possible.
- Clicking by the kennel staff helped too. For they already had a relationship with these dogs/puppies.
By the way all three dogs found incredible homes and are doing well. Justine never showed any more shyness. Solomon never had the fear issues of entering the building again and is doing Great in his new home. "Cookie" who was so shy is still shy but doing so much better. I have just shown the new owner how to continue the targeting behavior and I feel she will improve daily! She will probably never be really bold, but you never can tell! I'm always surprised at just how confident these dogs can become.
Teaching your dog to target and getting him really hooked on it will give you a tool to deal with fearful episodes. The targeting behavior must be really fun and really well learned for this to work. Have new "scary" people sit side ways to the dog at a distance. Have them put their hands palms outward at their sides. With the dog on a leash allow him to investigate at his own speed. The person should completely ignore the dog, no eye contact no reaching to pat or talking. The handler should click and treat any movement toward the person first, with the goal being for the dog to get closer and closer to the person's hand. The person can hold a delicious treat in their hand to help encourage the dog once the dog is touching the hand readily. The handler should still do the clicking, and let the stranger do the treating. Changing the person's position, having them stand and move around can be added later.
Some people find when the dog is really hooked on targeting that this whole process moves very rapidly. We once had a dog in class that was terrified of a plastic pool that someone had placed on the ground. This dog was using the targeting behavior in our agility class and loved the game. Within about 5 minutes, this dog that was initially terrified of the plastic pool was poking it with her nose, then stepping inside of it quite happily. Her owner can now use this targeting behavior whenever her dog's confidence wavers and immediately get her right on track.
Dee Ganley CPDT
Training Center Manager
Upper Valley Human Societywww.uvhs.org
From: Cathy Hurley Zimmer
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:38:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Wow, 600 pieces! I thought I was pretty good getting 8 treats out of a 1/2" soft Friskies treat for my cat.
~cathy
Becky Schultz wrote:
I agree completely about the treats! In my classes we use diced hot dogs, and I claim to have the Hog Dog Queen title, because I can get 600 pieces out of one hotdog!
From: Liz Williams
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:40:42 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] LLW training
Hi,
I began volunteering at a local shelter recently with a newly hired behaviorist. She is terrific and made many substantial beneficial changes including instituting clicker training. The results have been very satisfying for me as a volunteer. I have a question about how to use c/t to keep dogs from bolting out the kennel door and dragging a person to the outside exercise area.
I have been using c/t at the exit doors to get them to sit or back up and wait at the doors and the exit to the kennel. However, once the door is open it is a full scale drive to the next door. I do try to wait them out before we proceed, but I don't always manage especially with 56 dogs to exercise. How long does it take (typically) to get them to walk nicely toward the outside. I have no problem getting them to do LLW once in the exercise area. :-)
Liz Williams
Miami, Florida
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:36:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] YGRR/Tufts clicker training
I think this strategy of Emma's is so ingenious. Instead of working on a bunch of different behaviors, like an obedience class, or on one behavior getting better and better, like a standard shaping session, Em raises criteria by changing everything BUT the behavior. So, to use Alexandra Kurland's language (From CT for Your Horse) you are asking the dog a question: "Can you walk five feet on a loose leash?" Yes? Click, treat. And then maybe you ask "Can you walk ten feet...twenty feet...."etc. Or maybe you ask "Can you walk three feet, but with another person?" "And a third person?" "And a fourth person?" "How about outdoors?" On Grass? Next to a barking dog? etc. etc. etc.
This really keeps the people busy without overtaxing them, because the behavior gets better and better and more secure as the animal goes from person to person and place to place. It also, I think, forces the people to focus on what they are clicking, because they don't have TIME to get sentimental or bossy or otherwise socially involved with the dog and start 'trying' to make it do things.
I have seen Emma do this with pet owners, too...clicking each others' dogs right from the beginning is a truly mind-bending experience and gets the clickers clicking fast. And the excuses and yes-but stuff shuts up fast too.
Karen Pryor
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:43:22 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] behavior protocols at UVHS
Hey Dee,
Thanks for this post!
I teach my routine almost the same way exactly. No GLs tho, but I incorporate a 'balance' lead from Linda Tellington-Jones with some. I have waist leads and martingales and harnesses for hands free walking and stability.
It's the people I have to back up more than the dogs, but I guess I just have to see it as more of a training opportunity for the dog.
Like the dogs learn to sit behind the gate for attention, but people coming thru always encourage the dogs up on the fence, and the dogs then try to solicit new people with what they like to do more - stand up on the fence! I have to try and instruct a stranger in minutes to do *this* instead. I tell them before we go in and show them while we are in but still they do it, and I do think alot of dogs feel good when they stand up to greet, but it's my job to teach them they can feel just as good if not better if they keep all feet on the floor.
Like I said, maybe the key for me is to look at the situation from a different perspective in the name of training.
:)
Diane
From: Lisalyn Laney
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Good morning
Yes Becky, I use this too...and it does get through sometimes. We trainers don't live in their household, and unfortunately can not guide them on a day to day basis. Because "quick" results (particularly when the behavior has been on an intermittent schedule for a while) are rarely seen, people get frustrated. Next step unfortunately is to start with punishments and see (behavior stopped/interupted but not modified) then the animal habituates to the punsihment-(not used effectively following all the necessary criteria for application of positive punishment in the first place) and the behavior returns with a vengence, the punishments escalate...and a vicious circle begins...the road to landing them in the shelter, or worse! Just venting :)
Thanks,
--- Becky Schultz (BSchultz [at] animalhumanesociety [dot] org) wrote:
My best response to people who come in already punishing their dogs for something like counter surfing is "Is it working?" Obviously, the answer is no, it's not, or they wouldn't be asking. That's a great intro to say, well, then how about we try this way? That's my favorite way to avoiding being in a position of contradicting a vet who may be sending me referrals, yet still in the Dark Ages about training.
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:44:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] behavior protocols at UVHS
thanks Jeanie for the nice words.. All are welcome.:-)
hope the dogs were nice and quiet and pooped out and sleeping on their hamocks!!;-)
Just a Note we are looking for a Canine Behavior Coordinator for the shelter?? Just in case anyone is interested.
Send info care of our HR person
MaryTaylor [at] valley [dot] net
Dee
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:56:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] LLW training
Hi Liz,
This is a hard one emotionally for all. Dog and Human.
For the volunteer its getting the dog outside for some one on one time.
For the dogs its unfortunatly being reinforced even if you keep asking them to wait at each door.
So for us if the dog is REALLY PULLING then we just say OOOPS and try and walk again. Or if its a dog who Really isn't getting it we might put him back in his kennel and allow him to watch several others get to go out!!
Dogs do learn by watching!
I know this is a realy hard choice.
I will also say that if you are outside and walking the grounds and the dogs is being good for the walk, then don't really worry about it. For once the dog is in its home it will be fine!
Dee
From: RdySetClick
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:04:04 EDT
Subject: [kp_online] Glad to be here
Hi everyone,
It's great to hear all the wonderful ideas with shelter training. I look forward to learning a lot today.
I work for the Richmond SPCA as a full time Trainer. I do a lot of the clicker training in the kennels and have had amazing results with it. My favorite clicker story is this little mix dog her name was Bandit. She was in a top kennel and when you would walk by, she always did this little head bob.
I started to work with her on it and shaped it into a nod. Over a few days I gave it a name which was "Yes." As I worked with her in the kennels adopters would come through and I would ask them to ask her if she was beautiful. Then I would reply "Why YES you are" and when I did that she would nod her head up and down as if she was saying yes. It was a staff favorite.
Again...thanks for having me.
Tray Welch
Trainer
Richmond SPCA
Richmond VA
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:06:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] G/L
Diane,
This is how we use the G/L at the Upper Valley..Very similar to the TT butinstead of two lead we just use the one. Sometimes its having the G/L on but not hooked to anything. Depending on the dog and where it is in its training.
Most of our dogs are in-house for three of more weeks before being adopted.. some for several months. So most will have a fairly good skill level before going into there new homes. We have a Third Way Program where we will work with some of the more difficult dogs and then find suitable homes for them.
Gentle Leader
Fitting the G/L.
First we hold the gentle leader like a capital T with the end facing up so if fitted around the dogs neck it will snap together properly. Fit so that two fingers will slip underneath with out difficulty. Next hold the Gentle leader like capital T and now grasp the small loop in the middle of the T that fits over the silver bar ring. Pull up on this to make a loop. Good now you need a couple of treats. Hold treat on the opposite side of the loop so that the dog can put its muzzle comfortably through the loop. Just let it sit on the nose while dog eats the cookie. He might drop his head (that's OK) it will fall off That's Ok too. Just pick up and do all over again. Soon the dog will not drop his nose and the loop piece will stay on. Now you are ready to hook the neck again. So have dog put his nose through the nose loop and then give treat now slip hands down to find the neck strap and hook behind the dog's neck.
You now need to slip the plastic guide up so that the nose loop won't fall off of the dog's nose it should be able to slip off if you pull hard enough. Now you can hook the lead to both the G/L and the dog buckle collar. Don't just hook to the gentle leader. For if the dog pulls back it will close his mouth shut and the dog might panic. Your dog already is use to neck pressure so the G/L hooked to the collar too makes the adjustment period faster and kinder.
Do this at least 20+ times a day to start and don't walk to far. If the dog starts to scratch its nose then stop pull up gently and show the dog a treat and then distract it and get him to walk a few steps and give the treat. Toss a ball for the dog it should be able to open its mouth enough that it can get the ball. If not loosen it up a bit. Once the dog can play with the gentle leader on its time for walks.
Step One: Now that you have the Gentle leader (G/L) adjusted to fit your dog properly, its time to hook your leash correctly to the head collar. Clip the leash to the ring of the G/L and the ring of your dog's flat collar. This makes the transition to greater control easier on your dog because he is already used to leash pressure on his neck collar. Also by clipping both together, the first experience of having his nose and mouth controlled by the G/L creates less panic and depression. (If the G/L is directly hooked to the leash by the single ring under the chin when you pull up, the G/L closes the mouth and most dog will panic.) The "collar to G/L hookup" using both rings helps the dog adjust to this new thing on its nose much faster and with less fear.
Your dog will still try to paw the noseband off. Don't begin walking right away. Just stand still and help your dog focus on a ball or a piece of food so he can stop focussing on the thing around his nose. Think about how strange the halter feels. Think how trapped the dog must feel and how much his vision is affected - just put a piece of paper under your eye and see how it feels and looks. Your dog will resist - that's ok. If he can't get a ball in his mouth then loosen the plastic stopper on the nose loop under the chin. If the ball in the mouth setting makes the nose band too loose, then tighten it a little and use a piece of garden hose or an old sock to play with instead of the ball.
Feed your dog his dinner with the G/L on for the next two weeks. Whenever you take your dog for a walk you must use the G/L and not compromise. If you aren't willing to make this level of commitment to its use, your dog will always hate it! This head halter is not a muzzle. It is only a tool to help teach your dog how to walk without pulling. If you need to lure your dog at first to walk with this on, then do so. Once he can play ball, eat his dinner, walk around the house for 5minutes without trying to get it off, then you are ready for step two.
Step Two: After your dog has the G/L on and can focus on you for a few minutes at a time, have treats in hand and attach the leash to your waist. To do this, hook the leash to a belt loop leaving 3-4 feet of leash (more for a little dog) and then start walking. As soon as the leash tightens, stop, wait for dog to look back at you, then say YES (or C/T), and toss a treat to him. I start moving backwards at this time. If the dog follows, I will say YES and toss another treat. Now I will pivot to change direction and start to walk a straight line again. You will repeat the above sequence until you can walk for a distance of forty feet in a straight line without having to back up. You should be marking with YES or C/T any NON-pulling behavior. Don't let your dog drag on the gentle leader otherwise you aren't ever going to teach him to stop pulling. If your dog doesn't like treats then you can use sniffing for reinforcement. Just say "Go Sniff" after you have said YES because he has released the pressure on the leash by looking at you. And then let him sniff. Your dog will learn if he doesn't pull, he will get to go sniff! Sniffing is all most of our dogs want to do anyway - you are just providing them a way to earn a wanted reinforcement. Giving you eye contact as you move, rather than pulling with his head faced away from you is what you training. You will reinforce for eye contact and non-pulling while constantly attempting to vary distance traveled and distractions encountered.
Step Three: Now that your dog can walk around the block without you having to back up, its time to slip off the nose loop (just pull it off nose and it will become a part of the collar). Do this once you have started and the walking is going well. Slip off the nosepiece, continue walking, and if your dog doesn't pull then reinforce good behavior. If your dog starts to pull again, then just stop, back up, and when your dog stops pulling then reinforce for good behavior. If you have to do this three times in a short distance then pull nose loop back up onto the dog's nose and try again. Once your dog is walking nicely then again slip off the nose loop and continue walking. Soon your dog will be walking nicely without the nose loop.
Now you need to practice in lots of different places and different situations. If you really want to test that your dog is pulling, take a piece of black thread (three feet long) and attach the thread to your dog's collar and your belt loop. Now how are you making out! If the thread doesn't break you is all set.
Have a nice walk - you both deserve it!
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:10:03 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] LLW training
-----Original Message-----
From: Liz Williams
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:41 AM
To: kp_online
Subject: [kp_online] LLW training
I have been using c/t at the exit doors to get them to sit or back up and wait at the doors and the exit to the kennel. However, once the door is open it is a full scale drive to the next door.
Yes, So, what I do is the dog needs to earn his next click right here. I stand still or back up a step, maybe click a head turn away toward me, get as many reps as I can to increase attention to me or up the value of my treat. If I take some extra time here, I teach the dog it's this way each time every time, and then it's learned. But the distractions around here change, so I remember and don't aske the dogs for more than they can give. Then once I get that one step one step the dog having been thru it before will advance. I will be looking to see how I can use what Emma said.
I do try to wait them out before we proceed, but I don't always manage especially with 56 dogs to exercise.
I can relate. I sometimes make my own movements faster, as long as I can stay safe (dog not pull me off balance). Dogs naturally have a faster gait, unless they are just the right size to walk in pace with us. I find that the harder the dog is, the more I sometimes ask him to be Slower, Making it harder on us. With some, expecially first round in the am, we go faster and then it's no problem slowing down int he yard, on the way back, and next time out.
I also go in different directions, not to the yard like they think, even to that's where we Are going, so I get a chance to reward placement in relation to me. SO the dog is trying to get to the gate on my right, my whole body and mind is heading to the left. The nanosecond the dog starts to go with me, I can click and treat and reward by stepping toward the gate on the right.
It takes alot of time, yes, especially when you have so many to get out. I like it when my helper and I work as a team.
How long does it take (typically) to get them to walk nicely toward the outside. I have no problem getting them to do LLW once in the exercise area. :-)
SOmetimes it takes me 10 minutes to get 10 feet! I too have no problem in the yard or going back, it's the going To that is hard for the dog -SO exciting! So I use what I can to my advantage, in the yard alot of opportunity to reward the dog for being right, and then going back I may sidetrack away from the dogs run, or back toward the yard, lots of work at the gate thresholds.
It's not like it's more or less time, just spent a little differently, although I get caught up and spend more time ;-). As I work with one dog going out, I always felt bad for the ones waiting, so I try to make waiting rewarding! I treat them as I pass with another dog as they are calm, or just for waiting, or I can ask for things while I move past from getting one dog to the next. Every little bit counts!
Diane
From: Carol Whitney
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:56:35 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] People afraid of treats
Karen,
You have me laughing.
At 09:53 09/19/02 -0400, Karen Pryor wrote:
Animal caretakers often worry about treats--might make the dog fat, might upset the stomach (more kennel cleaning to do!) etc.
First, and this, for me, has been always characteristic of you - you track so well how people think and respond. It makes so much sense! And then you help them over the hump. I so much enjoyed your month on DogRead! I saw people doing double-takes, and, by trying things as you suggested (the cup trick was brilliant!) - they learned by doing! That's how I learned, too.
I think perhaps their idea of a treat is different from ours.
Well-said.
In the beginning of course you have to keep the rate of reinforcement very high
I didn't understand that fully till I read Bob and Marian Bailey's posts about speed trials. Didn't think I could get my "independent" Australian Terriers to enjoy doing "puppy-pushups" (sit, down, sit, down, many repeats in a very short time). One day I just tried it ("just do it") to this day, my dogs love doing this. What is it? It's a game, in which cue/response comes fast and furious - and it builds relationship, both through the Pavolovian effect - click/treat - and the operant effect - do, click/treat.
In the process I saw the 'My goodness that's much too much food" look on many watching faces.
"Fifty of these treats is one quarter of a regular hotdog. Look at Baxter." (Baxter is a big strong husky pitbull.) "How much of his daily ration is that? Not much." End of speech. They all could see the change that had come over Baxter, with that little amount of food. The wary expressions turned into thoughtful nods.
It is truly difficult, I think, for us humans to jump the boundaries of our previous experiences. They become so ingrained, and embodied in slogan and litany. Such as, "Dogs only get fat if you feed them too much." And, "Bribery doesn't work." (Until a person sees the power of the click-sound, clicker-training looks like bribery to them.)
Also, referring back to the idea of getting volunteers in shelters started on clicker, I did a great deal of thinking about this, while preparing the first clicker-class ever for my local dog club. What did I want the hunans to learn, and how could I best get them learning, with only 8 class sessions in which to teach?
I decided the principle of "just do it" was what I would use, and I based that on your article of acceptance of the ABA award, May 1997. The human who clicks gets feedback from the clicker. That human learns.
The treat part of the click-treat brings the dog into the "silly little human game," as Bob Bailey might say - and it creates a mini-ritual between human and dog. And, referring to size of treats, it's not, to the dog, the size that counts, not at all, nor even the taste, though surely that must appeal to the dog's survival instinct (a Pavolovian effect) - I believe it's the ritual and symbolic effect, for the animal, of contact - of feeding - from human to animal. It foments trust. I think that's largely what posiitive reinforcement does between two living creatures.
My "just-do-it" experiment worked out okay, in a club class, and continued okay later, as some students continued with me over the summer. The club withdrew the clicker offering; I think it was too scary for the club; however, the memories and feedback were all very good, so I think the door is open for another trial, later.
The students, though, clearly learned a lot by doing; a few really took off into the training. I put basic theory into handouts, to steer the students to further learnings on their own, explaining only the most very basic theory during the classes.
I took your most basic instruction, Karen, and put it into my class handouts; essentially: "Reinforce the behavior you like; ignore the behavior you don't like." One of the 7 students in that class, already deeply committed to other perceptions, never caught on. The others did, to varying degrees, several of them doing very well - in practice.
Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:56:29
Carol Whitney, Sooke, B.C., Canada
From: Magraid Niadh
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:23:53 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] Change in list name....
Gee, I was wondering why no messages were appearing in my mailbox. I didn't realize that with the name change I had to rejoin the group. Guess I'll be catching up now.
Margarat // Vida & Hesher
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:35:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] G/L
Thanks, Dee, for your description of how you train and use the Gentle Leader. I think it's important to notice that what Upper Valley does is put all dogs into a Gentle Leader to start with, and then transition them to a buckle collar with clicks and treats. That way the GL helps everyone manage the out-of-control dogs but just until they learn the self-control they need; then you can put the Gentle Leader away. I was talking to the Premier Collar people at the Tufts Expo and the idea of using it just to get control was very well received. They seem to do the neck loop up very tight, much tighter than necessary, I think, and the explanation I was given was that if the neck loop is loose, it can turn or rotate and that causes the nose piece to rub hair off the dog's muzzle. So I ran into people who were protesting both the missing hair and the tight collar. Seems to me both these problems are side effects of using the GL as a permanent collar, instead of using it to help the dog to learn to walk politely.
Dee mentions using Yes instead of the clicker, in this process... I would still prefer to use the clicker, it provides me with more accurate feedback as to what I marked, and it's clearer to the dog; but Dee, care to comment on your preference?
Karen Pryor
From: RdySetClick
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:47:48 EDT
Subject: [kp_online] RE: LLW training
I have a question about how to use c/t to keep dogs from bolting out the kennel door
Hi Liz,
Everyone trains differently...this is what works for me. I hope it helps a bit.
I use a few different styles when asking for them to stay at doorways. It has worked very well.
First thing I do is lure a sit inside the cage (using a clicker of course). Then once I can bet 20 bucks I can get the sit off of a lure I move on.
Next..instead of luring I place my hand on the handle that opens the cage and wait (I love this part since they have to figure out what I want, this really works their mind). Then when the dog sits I click, reward and lots of happy talk. Once I can bet 20 bucks I will get the sit when my hand goes on the handle I start to click for duration. Once the dog sits for around 5 seconds or so I will move to flipping the latch.
At this point what I will do is put my hand on the handle, wait and just only flip the latch (to wear the dog just hears the noise). Most of the time the dog will hop right up and get ready to go out. I just close the latch and do it again. What I am waiting for is the dog to think about getting up and when they stay in the sit position is when I click and reward big time. The reason is the dog thought about getting up but did not. Again....once I can bet 20 bucks that I can flip that latch without the dog getting up I move on.
Finally the last step. Flip the latch and open the kennel door ever so slightly...if the dog gets up the door shuts. As this goes on I start to open the door more and more. This goes very fast and the dog learns that it must stay seated for the door to come open. The most important part I think is clicking when the dog thinks about getting up but it does not. Once I can open the door fully and put the leash on...I click and reward. Once out of the kennels clicking for loose leash works great. I do this at every doorway and try to get everyone I can in the shelter to do the same.
I know this sounds like a lot but it does go faster than it reads. Hope this helps,
Sincerely,
Tray Welch
Trainer
Richmond SPCA
Richmond VA
From: "Becky Schultz"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:00:57 -0500
Subject: Re: [kp_online] G/L
Just a few comments about the GL and your descriptions of fit and use: Dr. R.K. Anderson,DVM, and Ruth Foster, a longtime dog trainer, are consultants to our shelter and we're very familiar with using the GL as it was designed to be used. The fit that Dee described (two fingers easily under the neck strap, nose strap can slip off the end of the nose) is *not* the correct fit as designed or intended.
The correct fit for the neck strap is that *one* finger can *barely* fit under the strap. Loose neck straps can cause nose strap fit problems, including the nose strap then obstructing the corners of the dog's mouth and not allowing full range of motion for opening the mouth. The snug neck strap does not distress the dog, but does have a calming effect on many dogs because it applies pressure to accupressure points, and again, that is intentional in the design of the collar.
The nose loop is supposed to go *only* as far as the nose leather, and *not* so it can slip off. Once the dog figures out he can get the collar off, you'll absolutely end up with many more attempts to pull it off (that's clearly OC). If the neck strap is fit snugly enough, the "V" of the GL is back far enough that the dog has adequate ability to open his mouth. Another problem with fitting it this loose is that it's our experience that nose loops that are too loose bother many dogs.
Dr. Anderson and Ruth Foster also do not recommend or support clipping the leash on the GL *and* the buckle collar at the same time. When there is pressure applied to the collar, it is designed to transfer the pressure to the back of the dog's neck and specifically not to the neck (most pulling dogs are quite habituated to the pressure they feel from a neck collar).
I see no reason that this "off label" use of the GL is more "humane" to the dog, as we fit thousands of dogs here successfully every year, humanely and without anything more than temporary and minor adjustment issues. Lore Haug and Bonnie Beaver just released an interesting study on headcollars that concluded, in part, that dogs acclimate to headcollars fairly quickly regardless of what type they're wearing. They fit their subject dogs with four different brands according to the manufacturers instructions.
I see lots of people coming up with different uses and fits for the GL, and that's fine, but people need to know that they were designed to fit the way they are for a reason, and changing the fit or the way they're used will affect the original intent. As we are lucky enough to have very frequent contact with Ruth and R.K. we've learned quite a lot from them regarding how and why they designed them to be fit and used.
As regarding the vision of the dog being affected: my glasses also come right up close to the corner of my eyes and my vision is not affected. There is no basis for this kind of comment, and unfortunately adds to some of the misinformation that is out there about GLs.
I'm sorry for being off- topic, but think it's important to indicate that there's a lot of misinformation and opinions out there about GLs, and not enough information about why they were designed to be fitted and used this particular way, rather than any way people want to fit the collar.
The GL was designed using research done at the University of Minnesota, so the facts are clear despite people wanting to put their own spin on it. Many of Dee's suggestions are similar to comments that Linda Tellington-Jones has made in her talks, and I know that when she was here this summer, she and Ruth and R.K. had several long conversations about the recommendations she's been promulgating regarding how to use GLs.
I think perhaps this list should focus on the correct use of clickers in a shelter environment, and not promoting an alternate use of a very excellent product that was carefully designed to be used as the manufacturers have suggested.
Becky Schultz, CPDT
Coordinator of Animal Training and Behavior Programs
Animal Humane Society
Golden Valley, Minnesota
From: Liz Williams
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:23:07 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] RE: LLW training
Hi everyone,
Thanks for all your suggestions on taking the dogs out of the kennels and to the exercise area. It helps to know that I was on the right track and to have some clicker regimes to pursue. The program at our shelter is brand new to everyone, both the volunteers and the shelter staff. Most dogs are happy to throw sits at me, but working with them on holding the sit will really help -- which is what the new shelter behaviorist mentioned the last time we spoke about this. It just didn't strike me at the time how important lengthening the duration of the sit was. Be suspicious of head nodding volunteers. :-) I really like the idea of working with the dogs to delay the gratification of exiting the kennel through all the individual steps to opening the kennel door.
Liz Williams
Miami, Fl
From: Magraid Niadh
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:22:45 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] Starting c/t as a volunteer
I would like to get some advice on how to approach a shelter as a volunteer interested in clicker training in the shelter.
I've been interested in volunteering to clicker train dogs at the local humane society (not our county animal control shelter). Of course it would be wonderful if by doing this the shelter would eventually have everyone clicker training.
I wanted to get advice on how best to approach the shelter on this, to avoid seeming like a know-it-all and have them resist the idea of someone coming in to sort of do their own thing.
Would it be best to just start volunteering, and then bring it up after I've established a relationship with them? Or to bring my interest in it at the beginning without making it the central interest? Or present myself as a trainer offering this particular skill (offering to work with just a few, the more troublesome dogs, to minimize the disruption)?
I may seem to be overly cautious by asking about this, but I know that shelters have protocols in place for volunteers, and wouldn't necessarily be keen on shifting those.
Thanks,
Margarat // Vida (Shelterhund) & Hesher (American Stray)
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:34:33 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] RE: opening doors
Tray, I think this is great. Others are doing this, too. Really what you're doing is using the clicker to teach the dog to give some other behavior (a sit) than just reacting (jump for the door) to a cue he already knows--the sight and sound of the latch and door. It goes fast because they are thinking, as you say. Furthermore, taking time to do one or two or three dogs will speed up the process as you do other dogs in the same kennel. They don't seem to learn cues by watching but they can learn behavior by watching. Even new dogs, seeing other dogs get clicked and treated, start offering similar behaviors (i.e. sits.)
Karen Pryor
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:43:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] RE: LLW training
Liz makes a good point...the next step after catching a behavior is using the clicker to extend the duration of the behavior, either in distance OR in time. Just as we might count steps--three steps, five, ten, twenty--in loose leash walking, it helps to count seconds--in extending the duration of a sit, or a down, or a wait at a door. You don't have to keep clicking, or keep treating, to make the animal sustain the behavior longer...just wait a few beats---count to three, say-- then click and treat (if the animal gets up when it hears the click, that's fine. It's what it was doing during the click that counts.) After a few three-second sits, go to a five second sit, then ten, twenty, etc. It's a whole new step for the dog to discover. Not only do you have to do something, but sometimes you have to keep on doing it, to get your click. And it's a whole new step for the new clicker trainer, too, and indeed, an important one. An important lesson which is part of many behaviors and is also a fundamental part of self-control.
KP
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:49:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] G/L
Hi Becky,
Please remember this is what has worked for us. I'm just sharing what works.
I appreciate what you are saying and I just wanted people to know how we have been using the Gentle Leader at our shelter. We also have been special ordering the G/L with the thinner nose band for over three yrs and now they have seen that the dogs adapt more easily.
Again something I found out quite by accident that the thiner ones worked better.
I adapted this method from my old horse back ground having used a double bridle on those hard to handle horses when over stimulated. The presure comes from the back for the neck near the poll which is why it works so well.
Only hooking to the G/L for a novice user can cause a neck injury if the dogs runs ahead and gets its head jerked back quickly. So I have felt this is a much better solution for both the novice dog and novice handler.
Most of my behavior counseling business is working with really Feisty Dogs.. I started doing this with them yrs ago because only hooking it to the G/L caused the dogs to panic and struggle so much more..
It's how we use it in Feisty Dog classes too!!
For over five yrs on literally thousands of dogs ...
I have found that using the G/L this way has helped so many more dogs adjust to it easier. (yess they do some times get it off but we just put it back on) We toos treats on the ground and do alot of hand targeting with it at first.
We have a G/L challenge that we do during our hike- a- thon for those showing up with the pinch collar or choke.
Our challenge is that if we can't get their dog to walk nicely in fifteen minites then we will give them $5.00.. We haven't given any money back yet!! They then give us the pich collar and we give them the G/L. This past sept. 8th we gave away 15 gentle leaders!!!
For the dogs in our shelter they are already so aroused by all the other dogs its a much better process.
I use to use the halti but liked the G/L for our goal is to get it off the dogs ASAP.
I tried the way premier states in there lituratute and it just didn't work for us.
PS.
I have sent them in a video and written material on how we are using it. Just for their info!! haven't heard a word back.
I just want to share whats working in our shelter. the Gentle Leader use has been a big part of this!
IMHO
Dee Ganley CPDT
From: "Linda Cunningham"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:07:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Starting c/t as a volunteer
From: Magraid Niadh I would like to get some advice on how to approach a shelter as a volunteer interested in clicker training in the shelter.
I would say it would depend on the shelter and their staffing. My shelter would jump at the offer. My shelter is in a small, rural community in Southern Michigan, the only staff we can afford are the ones to care for the physical needs of the animals. Anything additional comes from a small group (about 3 or 4) of volunteers. None of us have any sort of dog training experience. I missed the first discussion and I am in awe of what I have been reading this morning and can't help but wonder what a difference this would make to our dogs, the majority of which are big, rambunctious males who bark and jump at the kennel gates trying to get attention.
I think your idea of starting off as a volunteer would be the best route, once you start talking to staff and others you will probably find someone who knows the organization, thinks like you, and would be willing to help you get something like this implemented.
Linda Cunningham
Greater Hillsdale Humane Society Volunteer
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:10:02 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] word marker
We use and teach both. First I am working and dealing with mostly pet dogs and people who just want a nice dog ...Not competion dogs.
we are giving 20+ training classes this month from Agility, Feisty Dogs Free style to Tricks and of course many Foundation classe. CGC too.
Teaching classes is going to be another one of Karen's discussion list at a later date
So keep in tune for that one!
Let me back up a bit.. I've been teaching dog Ob classes for well over 25 yrs. having competed myself in Sch. and AkC OB and tracking.. Now presently (when time) play in agility and now herding with my present dogs. I have four dogs 2 Aussies 1 & 5 an 8 yr mini poodle and a 15yr young Papillion who was a cross over dogFrom traditional to clicker when he was about 2yrs old. We have never looked back... all are adopted remomed dogs with issues. Wish I had known about this sooner but didn't read karens book "Don't shoot the dogs) till 1988 wish it was sooner but to be honest my dogs were Great dogs and I always used lots of Treats..(didn't sit to well with the Germans )but oh well worked great for my dog and I..
I have attended acouple of the bailyey'schicken work shops along the path way.. So chucking food is a large part of what I do too. thats another story.
Now back to the "word" or Clicker.. remember you asked Karen :-)
First I don't think that there is a more powerful tool than the clicker except maybe a whistle for the marine animals. Defining what the correct behavior is, is whats important. But life and people differ.
So realistically we all have a voice and so a word marker is always with us. The clicker is sometimes awkward to hold and use especially in wet or cold weather. (We have only had the training center since this past April) So here in NH it gets very cold and really wet and yet the volunteers still would come and work with the dogs. This made using the clicker impossible dueint the cold rainy weather.
So using a "word" marker and using the clicker is what we teach at the training center and everyone is taught both ways. We charge them up the same and alternate using the clicker or word.
People especially most men want to us a word.. this is just fine as far as we are concerned and I see know difference in class situations at the novice foundation level. I want the folks to concentrate on the dog and on what its doing. We use the clicker for Attention work mostly. Looking for head movement. Eye Contact. For the "Next Step" classes we start getting more into using the clicker and shaping behavior.
I have done pure clicker classes for the public and in the past have found they would stop using the Clicker too soon. So I have found that they will use will continue using a word marker this makes me happy. Teaching the owners to observe their dogs is most important and how to reinforce good behavior and manage and supervise other behavior till the dog is no longer offering those behaviors.
For the volunteers at the shelter we teach the clicker for "inside" behaviors Not barking, sit at the front of the kennel, not jumping, lifting one paw up, leaning on the kennel for a good scratch...
Then have them use a "word" YESS!! marker for outside walking. This way they don't have to worry about where the clicker is its much easier and more fun for all.
The important thing is to help the volunteers be successful and to help the dogs at the same time. If we make too many demands they won't stay because they will feel awkward and then we all loose out. We have a dog walking 101 class that all volunteers must attend before allowed to walk any of the dogs.We also have three shelter dog classes that volunteers are encouraged to attend at least two before they take the dogs out by them self. We are sorking on this program. Our Star Volunteers are allowed to work with difficult and dogs in need before the dogs get on the adoptable side. We are still trying new things and are just in a developement stage..
So what ever you can start up is only going to help the dogs.
I would causion that for the shy dogs to use a word marker first and to teach a targeting to hand behavior first. Then to gradually implemnt in the Clicker.
I hope this makes sense.
Dee
Dee Ganley CPDT
Dog Training Services
member APDT 4944
Check out our website at: http://www.lunnflutes.com/deesdogs.htm
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:20:07 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Starting c/t as a volunteer
In a message dated 9/19/02 1:44:15 PM, (karenpryor) writes: Any comments from people who have been here and done that?
I know that when I tried to volunteer at a local shelter in my area years ago they wanted to know why I was interested in training the rescue dogs. I tried to explain that I had worked with problem dogs in the past, was good at it, etc...but they simply were not interested.
If I were to approach a shelter now I would probably offer to volunteer with whatever help they did need and go from there.
Just a thought...
em
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:27:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
In watching the big changes that even a modest amount of clicker experience can make in a naive dog, I am beginning to think that one of the great benefits is not just the more manageable behavior, but the increase in the animal's confidence and feelings of safety. I recall watching an elderly cocker spaniel in the intake kennel at UVHS, newly arrived, barking at everything, upset, his face just the picture of crossness. He stopped barking for one nanosecond and one of the staff clicked him and instantly his face smoothed out into a wide-eyed look, "Oh, my click, hurray." THAT made sense to him, and calmed him.
I can't help but think that any dog (or cat) that has learned something about earning clicks, in the shelter, really ought to go to a new home with a clicker and some kind of educational material. Even if the dog doesn't know a lot yet, and even if the people might never do much with it, if all they do is click and treat a few times in the new environment, what a help to the dog that might be, in making the transition. "Oh, they speak clicker here, too." As Nancy Lyon said in the first discussion, it's a communication system, and one that the dogs understand right away; and what they get from it is that We suddenly, and at long last, seem to be listening to them!
I wonder if there isn't a feeling, sometimes, that clicker use is too 'hard' for the average family to learn (it's really much easier than conventional training, unless you are coming from a long training background and have to make a shift.) Or that clickers are all very well in the shelter, but regular people wouldn't be interested. It seems to me that
If during the adoption process people are shown how to click and treat; and if the dog has been taught to touch (target to) an outstretched hand, and to make eye contact when his name is spoken--you can have the adopters click and treat for those two behaviors, and right away the dog is orienting to them, taking an interest in them, and thereby in a good position to appeal to them. Same thing when they get him home! They already have a connection with each other. Doesn't that help to make the adoption stick?
Emma, do you have a set process at Yankee Golden for teaching new owners about the clicker? Anyone else?
I know at Quincy dogs are going home with clickers now...how about cats? Jeannie?
KP
From: Cathy Hurley Zimmer
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:56:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
Karen Pryor wrote: I wonder if there isn't a feeling, sometimes, that clicker use is too 'hard' for the average family to learn (it's really much easier than conventional training, unless you are coming from a long training background and have to make a shift.) Or that clickers are all very well in the shelter, but regular people wouldn't be interested.
I am afraid I do not have any experience with dogs. But at the cat shows I have been to, I usually display my K.P. book and clicker, and I also do some C/T behaviors for show visitors with my cat (a regular household pet).
They think it's cute, but almost every time they say they don't have the time. Or they think it will be too difficult to train their cat, or I get the old "my cat trains me" phrase.
I do what I can to educate whoever will listen. I have yet to meet someone truly interested in training their cat, thus far (besides online groups). I guess it has been so ingrained into the public that cats are supposed to be aloof and un-trainable. I do hope the shelters using clicker training are also training cats as well as dogs.
~cathy
From: Anne Minnich
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [kp_online] Barking in Kennels
Hi,
I am a volunteer in Oregon who has started a clicker training program in our humane society. I helped start a program in one shelter with another woman and then moved to a closer shelter. I do two, two hour classes to get the volunteers started and then a one hour mentoring session one on one. The begining class covers name recognition and eye contact, sitting in kennels, waiting at doors, LLW, sit, down and leave it. It seems to really have improved adoptions of the animals that get worked with and the program is growing slowly but surely.
My problem is that our shelter is in town now and the neighbors complain about the barking and the shelter gets noise complaint tickets. I have been working on click and treating quiet sitting dogs in the kennels. The staff is under a lot of pressure to keep the dogs quiet and they just yell at them. I have hinted to a few of them that that is just barking back. They also have a sonic anti barking system which blasts them all with a noise when one barks. (this is only outside and they do not get to go into the outside of their runs much because of the noise problems) I have slowly gotten about half the staff excited about my program as long as it does not mean they need to participate. Do you have any other advice other than the volunteers clicking quiet dogs that would help settle things down?
I am at lunch break at work so will be in and out of todays discussion.
Thanks,
Anne
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:11:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Where/How to Begin?
Anne Kreider asked for a beginner's reference list for clicking in her shelter, for herself and volunteers.
I've mentioned Peggy Tillman's picture guide, an easy way to learn something about shaping many many individual behaviors. It's available in any PetSMart. Our company's Getting Started Kits for dogs are in all PetCo stores nationwide. These are the two easiest self-teaching entry points, I feel, no matter what you are planning to do. The book in our dog kit started out under the title "A Dog and a Dolphin" in the early 90's; it's undergone several revisions and updates and a name change to "Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs." It's now about 90 pp. compared to the original 40 or so, and it surprises me to say so but there are 150,000 copies in print. It's been translated into nine or ten languages, and the British have a nice hardbound version with wonderful color photographs all the way through
So these are the texts we KNOW are working for people.
In your case, Anne, you might want to consider Alexandra Kurland's horse clicker book or her kit; in addition to being very useful for horses its a good all around introduction to really thinking like a clicker trainer.
Plus I think for anyone who wants to expand their skills and develop skills in others it's very useful to join one of the online lists, such as www.click-l.com or www.clickersolutions.com, and read the archives, follow the discussions, and don't be shy about asking questions. This whole clicker technology would never have gotten started and spread world wide the way it has, had it not been for the internet and those long-running discussion lists.
There are also a number of more specialized clicker discussion lists among the Yahoo groups. Look especially for ClickTeach, which is just what it sounds like, a group that discusses tips for teaching clicker training.
Go to www.clickertraining.com and the Shelter Resource Center for special information for clicking in shelters, and for the discount-priced basic library we offer for shelters self-teaching clicker training. We also offer kits at a shelter discount for shelters to provide to adopters, both for dogs and cats.
We have also a list of about 60 experienced clicker trainers in different parts of the country who have volunteered to come into shelters in their area and help them get started. I hope we'll soon have a section for them on the website, with locator maps etc., but in the meantime, if you'd like an experienced clicker trainer to come get you started, email me SEPARATELY, and tell me where you are located. If there's a qualified someone in your city or state who has volunteered to help shelters, I'll put you in touch. Mind you we don't have someone standing by in every state, or not yet, but we might have someone near you.
KP
We will shortly--next week, I hope--have a new Dog page on the website which will give you more specific advice and book tips
Karen Pryor
From: Magraid Niadh
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:07:53 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] Volunteer Teacher Program?
Hi Karen,
Could you elaborate a little on your online Volunteer Teacher Program?
For instance, since I'm interested in approaching a shelter as a volunteer, would it be appropriate for me to do your program beforehand, or should I already be involved with shelter work?
Is the program ongoing, or are there start and end dates or modules that everyone completes at the same time?
Thanks.
Margarat // Vida & Hesher
From: "cwla515"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:12:45 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Tufts Etc.
Hi, Everyone,
I'm coming in late today, and greedily reading through all the earlier posts. The last KP On-Line session, in July, put me in touch with the Quincy Animal Shelter, where Jeanie Ellard was initiating clicker training. I've been volunteering as a "clicking dog-walker" there ever since. We've been incredibly fortunate to have Karen demonstrate in person, and most recently to participate at the Tufts Expo with three of the shelter dogs. As Karen and Jeanie have described, Baxter the energetic pit-bull learned to LLW--to his own obvious enjoyment.
Thank you all for sharing your experience. I'm going to dive back in to the earlier posts and catch up, especially all the useful stuff on doorways, exits, and entrances--just what I'd hoped to learn about today.
Christina (Kit) Ward
From: "Dee Ganley"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:21:19 -0400
Subject: [kp_online] Fw: archives on Karens Site
those of you who didn't have the opportunity should check out the archives on Karen site there are some really great topics. With some thoughtful ideas!!
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:33:14 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] educate
From: Cathy Hurley Zimmer
I do what I can to educate whoever will listen.
That's all any of us can do. I'd like to think that the more I try, the better I'll get at reaching them/helping them open up To listen. It's part of my education, too.
I have yet to meet someone truly interested in training their cat, thus far (besides online groups). I guess it has been so ingrained into the public that cats are supposed to be aloof and un-trainable. I do hope the shelters using clicker training are also training cats as well as dogs. ~cathy
I know what ya mean. But, Our kitten, who likes to greet all the dogs and is problematic at times because of this behavior, has turned some dog owners on to training their dogs. Afterall, they think, if the cat will sit and wave when asked, maybe I Can teach my dog!
I think maybe when I first talk to people who call about training that I talk too much, confuse them. It Is different than what they expect - which is me training the dog for them and they don't really care how but professionals force. Not me or my way.
When I get the chance, and with someone who wants to listen, I am able to reach them better if they see their dog responding to the clicker, instead of me trying to convince them it works. But I have also done this with dogs in front of their people, starting with a jumping inattentive foolish-acting dog and in relative minutes, have a dog sitting with attention, and they are still talking to me about how it won't work. They just don't Want to see, is my guess, but will when they are ready.
Peace, Diane
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:34:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with shelter cats
Cathy wrote a delightful post on the cat clicker list about her cat winning a first prize from Friskies at a big cat show, for "Friskiest cat!" and actually producing a few tricks for a big crowd, even though Cathy was sent up on stage by surprise without clicker or treats.
Cats respond to clicks and treats very well, although they tend to work in much shorter bursts than dogs--five to ten clicks per session, instead of fifty or more. For bored, indoor cats, or stressed-out, shut down cats in shelters, it provides valuable mental stimulation. You can't always do much to improve the cat's environment, but you can improve its mental world, by giving it things to do and think about.
I tell people that its a way to keep their cat busy and make its life interesting, and also make it more interested in them.
Clicker cats are anything but aloof! They, after all, are training us to click, and they really like that.
You can easily 'wake up' shelter cats by teaching them, through the cage front, to touch a target, such as the end of a pencil, for clicks and small treats of tuna or freeze-dried fish, or a spoon-lick of baby food meat. At Quincy Animal shelter last month we had four or five volunteers at once, working on a bank of cat cages, and most of the cats were participating vigorously in about five minutes--the others were beginning to wonder what they might be missing, too. By the way as with dogs the cats quickly figure out who is clicking which cat, and they listen to their own click. They learn fast, too, and are vERY good at learning by watching each other, if your setup allows for that.
Karen Pryor
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:47:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Barking in Kennels
From: Anne Minnich
Hi,
I am a volunteer in Oregon who has started a clicker... My problem is that our shelter is in town now and the neighbors complain about the barking and the shelter gets noise complaint tickets.
Anne, down-load our pdf file from www.clickertraining.com; Make your Kennel a No Bark Zone, print it out, and hand it around, so you have some backup to show that other organizations believe in this. Also read the Upper Valley story on the web site; you are not the only shelter in dire straits with neighbors for barking.
While you are clicking quiet dogs, also watch barkers to see if you can catch them watching what's going on. Clicking a momentary pause in some dog's barking is one way to start affecting the noisier ones. Clickers and treats hung at the door of at least some of the kennels can help others get involved.
Anyone else want to comment on this? It definitely can be done. And one funny thing happens, very human...when the barking stops, after a while people forget it was ever any other way. I'm thinking of a clicker shelter I visited not too long ago where things were very quiet, indoors and out, though they had eighty or more dogs if I recall correctly.
I knew that pre-clicker that had not been the case. So I asked the staff how long the dogs had been quiet, and the group more or less shrugged, they've always been quiet. I quizzed them some more, did anyone remember when the dogs used to bark all day--Oh yes, finally it dawned on some of the more senior people that they used to wear ear plugs, could never hear the phone ring, etc. etc....they really had forgotten it.
KP
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:22:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] volunteering
If you are interested in being one of the Clicker Commandos who can answer a shelter's call for help getting started with clicker training, please go to the Shelter Resource Section on www.clickertraining.com-- there's a link to it on the left hand menu on the home page. There you'll find a section for signing up. Here's how that works: in the Boston area over the last two years we have been experimenting with what works and what doesn't work to get a shelter started. It seems that the simpler the program is, the better. Emma Parsons and I have found that what seems to be most effective is a three-part intervention:
1) Ask she shelter to order an Orientation Pack so they have the necessary self-teaching materials for staff and volunteers to move forward once they get going. This also has the effect of making management take an interest in getting their money's worth out of the program.
2) Give a short (under 2 hour) Clicker Clinic for volunteers and any interested staff, to introduce them to clicker training (we have created a very specific outline for this clinic, which we provide you.)
3) Institute a clicker champion in the shelter; make arrangements to follow up and to be there as a resource for the group; and jointly establish a plan for clicker information for adopters.
We've drawn up a set of criteria for being able to do this on your own, and that's on the Resource Center, too. In general you should have been clicker training for at least a couple of years, trained a lot of animals besides your own, trained more than one species, and already have some experience teaching clicker training to others.
As I said, we're just now putting together a home page on the website for this program, which will allow shelters and volunteers to locate and contact each other, allow you to share information among yourselves, and so on.
There are of course lots of people who maybe don't have the experience to teach the whole thing but who would love to get started, as several of you have discussed today, by just volunteering and getting going with some clicking at your local shelter. We will be putting together some guidelines to help you do that; and discussions like this one are a huge help--this is definitely a communal effort. Meanwhile, Dee Ganley and Upper Valley are developing their programs for teaching volunteers and teaching the general public--so they will be an ever more useful resource, too, as we all learn together.
KP
From: Magraid Niadh
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:19:04 -0700
Subject: [kp_online] Kennel gate panels
Hi Dee,
I've read descriptions of the panels you use on kennel gates to help manage behavior. Are there any photos online showing them? If not, maybe they could be uploaded the this lists Photos section.
Cheers,
Margarat // Vida & Hesher
From: Anne-Claire Jolivot
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:24:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [kp_online] word marker
hello every one,
I was a volunteer at the UVHS and learnt every thing about C/T there. I am a "clicker-driven" person and use it almost all the time. Fortunately I have been taught to use a word marker...YES!!!
I have just moved to New York City where I had to handle my VERY SHY dog. I tried to take my clicker in the street with me. Oh! Gosh! it was just very difficult. New York is just very noisy, very speed and my dog was very stressed, very alert. You cannot make two steps without meeting dogs who want to kiss, to snap, to play, to hump, to attack your dog...Lots of people just stop by you and want to pet your dog. They make noise, look the dog in the eyes, bend over him...Thus your scared dog just pulls you abruptly away. You cross the road and suddenly your dog jumps aside because he does not want to walk on the sewer wire and so on. Take it from me, I had to keep my two hands firmly on the leash and never let it go. So I had to let my Clicker Tool at home for a while and use the "Yes" marker. Fortunately my dog had been trained to the "yes" and was responding to it very well.
I do not want people to think they can give up their clicker. I do consider it has the best tool. I just think it can always be good to have an "emergency-tool".
Anne-Claire.
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:28:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking in shelters--on your own
Here's an article from the shelter Resource Center that may give you some ideas about how, as a volunteer, you can help a shelter get clicking. My sending it this way will mean it comes as a text-only file. You can get a more readable copy by finding the piece on the site, scrolling down to click Printer friendly version, and printing it out. But meanwhile this at least will give you the content.
Remember that this and other pieces I've mentioned today are in the shelter Notebook, a work in progress which we made up for Tufts which you can order by phone, 1-800-47CLICK.
Here's the Shelter get started piece: Happy clicking!
10 Steps to Become a Clicker Shelter...On Your Own!
Many animal shelters are beginning to incorporate clicker training into their daily management. Others have seen enough to want the benefits, but just don't know how to get started.
Ideally, someone would come and show you this new way of handling and communicating with animals, even with frightened, excitable, inexperienced animals. But that's not always possible; there may be no clicker teachers in your area, or none sufficiently experienced to give your staff and volunteers the crash course they need.
Happily, many individuals and many shelters are able to be successful on their own. To accomplish the first steps in clicker training, you don't need a training background or a lot of experience; all you need is curiosity, solid instruction from a good book or video, a clicker, treats, and some dogs to practice with.
And the very first steps in clicker training are exactly the steps that shelters need most: not full-blown obedience training, just some simple techniques to reduce barking, improve calmness and confidence in dogs and cats, and make animals friendlier and more oriented to people.
Here are 10 steps that will help you be successful even without a clicker teacher:
- Organize for success. First, acquire the solid self-teaching books, videos and other material that have been successful for others, and make them available to staff and volunteers alike. People should be able to find them easily during breaks. Second, make sure that an ample supply of clickers is available; we recommend two to three clickers for every person working at one time (they get misplaced!). Third, choose someone as your "Clicker Champion" (they need not be a clicker trainer yet, just an enthusiast.) and put that person in charge of clicker instructional materials and supplies.
- Give staff and volunteers permission to experiment with the clicker. Don't expect everyone to participate; encourage those who are interested, without putting pressure on people who are hesitant. Often, clicker successes begin with volunteers, and then spread to the staff. Encourage them to read and watch the videos in the Shelter Orientation Pack, to utilize our website, and to join some of the many e-mail clicker lists.
- Begin with dogs in the kennels. Put kibble in containers near the kennel doors. Give selected staff and volunteers retractable clickers to wear on one's waist, or hang clickers at the kennel entrances (See our Shelter Orientation Kit). Allow people to begin clicking and tossing a treat to dogs that are not barking, and to dogs that are standing rather than jumping up. Dogs quickly find out that they can make people click by standing or sitting quietly at the door. The more different people who click and treat the dogs for being quiet, the faster they learn. Just as important, clicking and treating through the kennel doors gives people practice in using the clicker without having to manage the dog at the same time. (Download our information sheet : Make your Kennel a No-Bark Zone.)
- Use feeding times as a clicker opportunity. Feeders can click when a dog is quiet and standing still, even if only momentarily, and then put the food in. Two or three repetitions may be all it takes to teach the dog to stand or sit quietly, on purpose, for its dinner. Some dogs can actually learn this by watching other dogs get clicked for being calm. Clicking at feeding time can also have a calming effect on cats. Target training-clicking a cat for touching and following an object, such as a pencil, around the front of the cage-is also an easy way to provide some mental stimulation for cats before meals. Use a special treat food such as small bits of tuna. See the Clicker Fun Kit for Cats (included in the Shelter Orientation Pack) for more ideas.
- Make the most of other frequent interactions. Cleaning the kennel and taking dogs out for exercise are excellent clicker opportunities. Start by speaking to the dogs from outside the cage. Click for eye contact. (If there are two dogs, click when they both look at you.) Toss a treat (or several treats) toward the back of the kennel. Enter the kennel while the dog goes after the treat. Click and treat for front paws on the floor, for sits, for eye contact again, and for letting you clean, or letting you put the leash on. Toss treats rather than hand-feed, for safety and to keep the dog actively participating. Much can be accomplished here in just a few seconds, and the dog will remember well, the next time. This procedure can help both the fearful, shrinking dog and the door-rushing, unmanageable dog. (Download our Information Sheet, Entering and Exiting the Kennel Quietly.)
- Communicate and Coordinate. When several people are beginning to click several behaviors with several dogs, it's time to put progress cards on the kennel doors. Ask the Clicker Champion to prepare cards listing each dog's name, the starting date, and clickable kennel behaviors in the order that they usually occur (see below). Clicker users can check off behaviors as they develop, so everyone can see what this particular dog should be clicked for, today. Adopters, too, can see what each dog has already learned, which they will find both impressive and reassuring. These simple clicker tasks are usually enough to quiet the dogs and make them more manageable, greatly reducing daily stress levels for people and animals both.
-
- Eye contact
- Stop barking
- Feet on the floor
- Come forward to greet people (shy dogs) or step back from door to greet people (overfriendly dogs)
- Sit
- Sit to be fed
- Sit to be leashed
- Go out quietly
- Progress to more complex behaviors. In clicking and treating for the basic behaviors, the human participants learn how to get results with their clickers. They will now be eager to try clicking for more complex behaviors, both in the kennels and outside. The Shelter Orientation Pack materials offer a lot of help. A complete novice might begin by reading and following instructions in Karen Pryor's book, Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs. Someone who has some successes under their belt could continue with exercises in Peggy Tillman's Clicking with Your Dog, Step-by-Step in Pictures (both are included in the Shelter Orientation Pack). Good behaviors to work on include a relaxed down; loose-leash walking; sitting at doorways; give a high five (appealing to adopters); and, for safety, bump an outstretched hand with nose or head, and tolerate handling of feet, ears, mouth, and body.
- Reinforce your clicker staff/volunteers. Hold brief regularly scheduled (weekly, if possible) meetings for all staff and volunteers who are interested in clicking. Let the participants (not the supervisors) review what has been accomplished so far, discuss problems, discuss ideas, and plan the next steps. Reinforce any progress, individual or collective, with recognition. Serve snacks.
- Encourage clicker participants to attend any local clicker classes and clicker or behavior-related seminars in the area. Sending two or more volunteers or staffers to a clicker seminar or other clicker event can be a good investment. Not only will they learn while there, and from each other later on, but also they can meet other experienced clicker trainers who might be attracted to your shelter to serve as resource people.
- Encourage adopters to learn clicker training and use the clicker at home. This is readily done by making sure that the Getting Started: Clicker Fun Kits are available for purchase by adopting families-or better yet folded into the price of adoption. Any dog (or cat) that has been exposed to the clicker in the shelter will be vastly reassured to hear the familiar clicker, in its new home. The dog's obvious happy response will also please the new owners. Whether or not they continue with the training, a little clicking can go a long way to smooth the transition and make that adoption stick.
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:24:32 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
In a message dated 9/19/02 2:25:08 PM, karenpryor writes:
Emma, do you have a set process at Yankee Golden for teaching new owners about the clicker?
Each adopter does go home with a clicker kit and they get a lesson on how to use it during the adoption appointment.
Em
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:31:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
What things do you find are most important for adopters to experience, during their lesson on using the clicker, in their adoption appointment?
Secondly, about how much time does the appointment usually take?
Karen Pryor
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:58:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] word marker
Thank you, Anne-Claire, for commenting on your experiences at Upper Valley and your use of Yes on the streets of New York. Sounds like you've done a great job with your shy dog!
Of course a word, used consistently and correctly, can be a perfectly good secondary reinforcer--I use 'good' when I'm out on the street with my dogs and don't have a clicker on me, but want to mark something important like resisting the urge to jump all over the people at the bus stop. And Dee has taught you exactly how to use the clicker, so you use the word in the same way, which is the way it ought to be used.
Incidentally when I was training horses we did all of it with "Good pony" as the click, and the ponies listened very attentively and learned everything they needed to know. (The trainers were 10 to 12 year old kids, six of them; once I heard a visiting child pat a pony and say "Good pony," and the three nearest pony-kids rounded on her and said almost together, "Don't tell him that, he didn't DO anything for it." Kids and ponies were very clear on it.)
I'm glad this question came up, though, and will welcome more discussion of it, perhaps in the next Discussion; because I'm seeing a group of trainers out there doing something else with it that's not effective. It's a whole new topic so I'm not going into it tonight, but I am writing an article on it for Kay Laurence's new all-clicker magazine, Teaching Dogs. (Subscription info on our website.)
Karen Pryor
From: "Maria & Ken Kuhns"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:09:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Barking in Kennels
Thank You Karen
Maria
From: Karen Pryor
Ok? Everybody get greg's simplified link for downloading the no bark handout?
Karen Pryor
From: Liz Williams
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:16:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [kp_online] word markers
Hi,
I don't know if this qualifies, but I have a very shy dog who is somewhat tentative meeting new people. I have used the phrase "who's that?" in a happy voice whenever he sees people he knows and responds positively to. Now I use the phrase when he sees a new person and he wags his tail happily even if he is still a little wary. It worked really well for me in that situation and gets him to relax somewhat upon seeing someone new comes toward him.
Liz Williams
Miami, Fl
From: "Alejandra Pardo"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:22:30 -0000
Subject: [kp_online] Shy growly dogs
Hello!
I just thought I'd ask a question, as this list has been a bit quiet ;).
Sometimes I get people bringing me their dogs, so as to evaluate them or something. Some of these, are adopted dogs, and I've had recently two of them, that are very shy, even growly.
One is a male Shetland, one and a half years old, that was mistreated as a pup, he just comes near me barking, and doesn't let anyone but his owner approach him. He doesn't like treats much, not hot dogs, not baby food, not garlic chicken..not meat..not cheese, not cereals nor cookies...so on. I've been training him by showing his owner how to clicker train him, and it works great. The other one is a female shar pei, one year old, veeeeery shy, who's afraid of a LOT of things and pretty unsocialized. If anyone comes near to her, she growls and runs away. I'm also teaching her owners to c/t her. And she doesn't like most food either.
In both cases, the appointment lasts about an hour, and the owners somehow wish me to come closer to their dogs, I guess they'd love to see me touching or petting the dogs, which is something I don't do, in order not to get the poor doggies more nervious. I've been using Rugaas' Calming signals as well, a lot of yawning, head turning, etc. and it helps a LOT, but is there anything else I could try to make approaches faster? I click them for eye contact, and throw small pieces of food to them, but they don't really seem to care about it.
I know that with some patience it would work magically, but as I don't have much time with them, nor many sessions, I wondered if there was a faster way?
Thank you!
Biól. Alejandra Pardo
Mexico City
From: Dog In The Yard
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:42:06 +0000
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Shy growly dogs
I hope it's ok to throw this in. I'm not as experienced as some of you.
I worked with a shy, growly, fearful foster who had bitten three people (not seriously). He would growl if you did anything except pat the top of his head.
In order to protect myself during our initial sessions, I did use a soft, elastic muzzle on him. The muzzle allowed him to take treats for the clicker session, as well as pant if he was showing signs of stress. The muzzle helped me by allowing me to feel totally relaxed, therefore not exposing him to any stress pheremones from me.
Basically what I did was have hug sessions with him. I started out slow, just touching him. If he didn't growl, he got a click and a treat. I do have to say this dog was very food motivated. After a couple of sessions, we had worked up to a light hug around his sides. A couple more sessions and I noticed a tail wag. I clicked for the tail wagging. I kept clicking for the tail wag. After a couple more sessions, he was not only wagging when I was hugging, but he stopped growling about 98%.
Another sessions or so and I was picking him up off the floor. Although he would growl from time to time, he never did make a motion to bite. So we stopped using the muzzle.
He was also clicked for coming near any thing he was afraid of. I had him on leash, so he wasn't allowed to run away. His choices were, stand there all day, or move closer to me and the feared object. After a couple of weeks of these sessions, he was approaching things on his own, knowing he would not only get a click and a treat (he would stop partway to the object to make sure I was watching), but he would get MASSIVE cheers for being such a brave dog.
I had decided early on that we wouldn't address the fearful behavior, but rather concentrate on teaching him how to be brave. I worked with his new owners after placement, teaching them what I was doing, and they continued on with the sessions. The dog has just kept growing in confidence and friendliness.
Karen Clouston
Edmonton, Alberta
Airedale rescue
From: creativk9
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:41:32 EDT
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
In a message dated 9/19/02 5:29:54 PM, karenpryor [at] rcn [dot] com writes: What things do you find are most important for adopters to experience, during their lesson on using the clicker, in their adoption appointment? Secondly, about how much time does the appointment usually take?
The appointment usually takes about an hour and a half.
Normally what I like any beginner clicker trainer to experience is "The Clicker Experience" which is what it feels like to be the dog. However, in the adoption appointment, we usually do not have time to play the training game.
What I do want the adopter to know is first, what behaviors need to be worked on, and of course, how to work on them with the clicker. I will show the new adopter how to hold the clicker, the leash, and the treats. We will work on simple exercises first like eye contact and the basic sit. This helps the adopter to feel what it feels like to handle all the elements at once which is a breeze once they get used to it.
We then will work on the particular behaviors that that particular dog needs. For example, if the dog is a chewer and the dog has a aversive history with the crate, we will do a freeshaping session on how to shape the dog to go into the crate. (Most of these dogs will have been started by the Tufts students already.) If it is LLW, we will go over how to put on the GL correctly and how to click and feed every step. If it is a shy dog, how to click and feed the dog for the absence of the shyness. Whatever the staff feels the dog needs to be successful, that's what we bring to the new owner's attention.
We then keep in touch with the new owner to make sure everything is going smoothly. Let me just say that even if the owners don't end up using the clicker much, the mere fact that they clicked the dog for a brief length of time is just enough for the dog to recognize that Mom and Dad "speak clicker" too. The dog pays much more attention to the new owners because of this. We have also found that all the behaviors that we have worked on (LLW, Crate shaping, eye contact, etc..), even if the owners do not continue the training, hold up beautifully.
Hope this helps...
Em
From: "Waggin Tails"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:58:01 -0500
Subject: RE: [kp_online] volunteering
From: Karen Pryor
Subject: Re: [kp_online] volunteering
1) Ask she shelter to order an Orientation Pack so they have the necessary self-teaching materials for staff and volunteers to move forward once they get going. This also has the effect of making management take an interest in getting their money's worth out of the program.
OK - what if they just say No? That's as far as I seem to get, and admit I've stopped trying, as I have a hard time already getting done all that I need to daily. This is something I would make time to do.
Can I buy the shelter pack myself and maybe get a meeting with the city mgr (is that the right political route?) to open the door? I almost have everything already - an employee (for one week) STOLE my Getting Started with Dogs as I give it to them to read when they are hired, and the library has Peggy's book that I am constantly recommending and need to have my own copy anyway. I just don't want All my stuff lost/stolen (even tho I give as many clickers away.) I don't want to deal with the politics, but with a new shelter on its way in this area, I'd like to help make some positive change. I've been thinking I need to reach people outside the shelter, form a team of sorts, and then as they volunteer, I'd have a base to work with. Easier said than done, but if I can see realistically that it'll work, I'd try to forge ahead.
2) Give a short (under 2 hour) Clicker Clinic for volunteers and any interested staff, to introduce them to clicker training (we have created a very specific outline for this clinic, which we provide you.)
This is basically what I want to do - teach staff because I can't be there myself, but they Can do it and already are there.
3) Institute a clicker champion in the shelter; make arrangements to follow up and to be there as a resource for the group; and jointly establish a plan for clicker information for adopters.
I have already offered free first lessons to shelter adopters, and offered to help with education in a group setting for all the adopters of that week. Nothing.
We will be putting together some guidelines to help you do that; and discussions like this one are a huge help--this is definitely a communal effort. Meanwhile, Dee Ganley and Upper Valley are developing their programs for teaching volunteers and teaching the general public--so they will be an ever more useful resource, too, as we all learn together. KP
Great!
Peace, Diane
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:56:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] word markers
Liz, I would say that you are using a verbal cue, to tell him it's a friend. Perfectly legit--now click and treat the tail wag!
Karen Pryor
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Shy growly dogs
Great story! The key point is that she clicked for courage, instead of addressing the fear directly, and it worked. Targeting, to one's fist, or a target stick, can also be a great help with a fearful dog --see Dee's paper.
KP
Karen Pryor
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:00:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
Beautiful, Em. Thanks a million, I'm sure many people will find a lot to chew over in this post.
KP
From: creativk9
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Clicking with adopters
In a message dated 9/19/02 5:29:54 PM, karenpryor [at] rcn [dot] com writes: What things do you find are most important for adopters to experience, during their lesson on using the clicker, in their adoption appointment? Secondly, about how much time does the appointment usually take?
The appointment usually takes about an hour and a half.
From: "Karen Pryor"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:05:04 -0400
Subject: Re: [kp_online] Join the clicker community
Many of us today were looking at the real nuts and bolts not of clicker training per se but of using one's volunteer skills and position to bring clicker training into specific shelters. I'm so glad that so many people are thinking this way; it really seems as if the most effective way to introduce it is through one or more volunteers, from the ground up, not through management, from the top down. Of course it is never easy to change the world, but it's also quite reinforcing when the world or your piece of it does change!
Social scientists seem to have accepted the concept of the 'meme;' the word refers to an idea that spreads through a culture almost the way a virus can spread through a population or a gene through a species. Clicker training and all that it means is just such a meme. I have watched in fascination as it has spread, on its own, as it were, all over the planet, from the first 'infection' of two different groups of people, scientists and dog trainers, in San Francisco in 1992. This is a truly beneficial virus, besides; and we are all carrying the 'contagion' with us, for the benefit not just of all those lonesome animals, but of ourselves.
Before I sign off tonight, at 7 PM eastern time, I want to remind you to visit and to use the Shelter Resource Center; it's there for you and we add to it constantly. We will also keep this Yahoo Group site open so that you can review this day's archive. You are welcome to add letters and post photos! And please consider joining our Clicker Community on clickertraining.com. Go to Community, and sign up for a monthly letter from me, and advance notice of new books and events.
Thank you all for being here.
Happy Clicking!
Karen
clicker training in shelters in MA
Hello,
I train future trainers to clicker train in shelters. I work with a company called ABTA, and we train students to clicker in shelters. THe shelter that i work with is Buddy Dog humane society in Sudbury ma
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